Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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That you can choose what colour of socks to wear so the Bible is wrong?

Making choices does not equate to having a will that is free. Start there.

Man makes choices out of his nature. Men are born by nature as children of wrath. Opposed to God. God haters.

So you must be talking about predestination, as in (Romans 8:30) ? That the Son draws us to the Father (John 6:44)?

Are we in agreement on what those passages mean?

I think that in the same way that evil spirits entice man to sin, that the spirit of God entices man to go to the Lord who is our Master. Then man has to make a free will choice and choose life or death. Does that make sense?

It's almost like God let loose man on a strange planet and gave him Amnesia so he wont remember where he is from, to see, if we would seek to find our way back to Him of or own volition.

There will be no one saved who was forced to be saved (Predestinated). We all make a choice and either get serious about it or not.

If you have any scriptures showing that I am wrong, by all means, show them to me Sister.
 
Thought you meant something like you've said in this comment but it was a messy one for sure. Not dissing you for it, i've posted many messy comments myself and have no probs being corrected either.

No Edward, everyday, as i have had to repeat ad nauseam on this thread of mine, i exercise choice and will. If they impact others too much, it's most likely i won't be able to, as they'll interfere with their choice and free will.

You Free Willers often don't think things through, sadly, in many ways.

Some of us understand the difference between freedom of will and freedom of action and don't conflate the two.

You’re right about freedom of action, but that’s not the same as free will.

You determinists act like non-determinists haven't thought through and countered every one of your arguments. At least put forth a legitimate argument rather than a conflated one.
 
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That topic has already been discussed.
The conclusion is that although the "degrees of freedom" whereby individual will may be enabled might be constrained (we cannot flap our arms and achieve escape velocity), the quality of will is in fact inherently free, this by intention and design.

True free will is baked in the creation cake. On purpose.

Understood. I also enjoyed this freedom of will vs. the freedom of action already and the common backing it up with pejoratives. Doesn't change much, does it...
 
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"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8
 
So you must be talking about predestination, as in (Romans 8:30) ? That the Son draws us to the Father (John 6:44)?
I do not recall saying anything at all to you about predestination, so I don't know why you think I must be talking about it. I have already cited many Scriptures, so very many Scriptures I have made reference to, those are the ones I'm talking about. All of those verses about man not being free, being a slave to sin and a lover of darkness OPPOSED to the Spiritual things of God, God Whom he hates, taken captive to the will of the devil, blinded to the truth, incapable of submitting to God... the gospel is heard as foolishness to him since Scripture explicitly articulates that he cannot comprehend it. Who decides to believe foolishness?
 
Uh, oh. I misgendered someone again??? Shame on me! But thanks for pointing out my error.
No worries Rufus, and she also corrected you... I was hoping you would see my post in time
to be able to edit yours and then I could have deleted mine also... but no such luck! LOL
 
Free Will is the choice made after God manifested Himself to us whether we will believe or reject Him.

Scripture reference for this is Romans 1, 1 Corinthians, and Ephesians.

It's impossible for any mere mortal that has an inherently evil heart to have a will that is "free", since that heart is not and cannot be free FROM corruption, sin, evil desires, the world and the devil. If man's heart is in such great shape as to be glibly and implicitly labeled as being "free" then why has God promised to give his covenant people a new heart? What is the point to a new heart if not to produce godly desires within it, which is not possible with the evil heart with which we were born? Only the Creator's heart is totally free FROM any corruption, which make His will truly free -- free to be holy, righteous and good all the time. But a will that is in bondage to and is a prisoner to sin can be never be free in the libertine sense; yet, this is exactly what you FWers believe! You think your will is unrestrained by any conventions of morality. You FWers obviously believe that freedom is only a one-sided coin.
 
Cheers Rufus but i'm a woman and usually very laid back, however, fools and hypocrites disgust me. Obvious you can stand up for yourself too.

I apologize for misgendering you. My bad...

Sadly, this thread has its share of both what disgusts both us.
 
Some of us understand the difference between freedom of will and freedom of action and don't conflate the two.

You’re right about freedom of action, but that’s not the same as free will.

You determinists act like non-determinists haven't thought through and countered every one of your arguments. At least put forth a legitimate argument rather than a conflated one.

Really? You think you understand, heh? Tell me what wags what: "Freedom of action" wags "free will", or does "free will" wag action?
 
Really? You think you understand, heh? Tell me what wags what: "Freedom of action" wags "free will", or does "free will" wag action?
They do not even understand that they teach that the flesh brings forth fruit unto life. Of course they
would have to deny this since the opposite is explicitly stated in Scripture, but we know very well how
they love to twist and deform what is written to suit what they have been taught to think and believe.
That is why they must rewrite 1 Cor 2:14, saying it does not mean what we think when it is plainly written.


fruituntodeath.png

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)
 
Really? You think you understand, heh?

Not that difficult. These things have been defined and argued for quite a long time, as you know. It's just odd when someone tries to post it as if it's new and conclusive and not easy to spot for what it is.
 
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The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us. from John 14 v 17, John 1 v 10, Matthew 11 v 27 & Luke 10 v 22, 1 Corinthians 8 v 3, Romans 8 v 9, 1 Corinthians 2 v 14, Romans 8 v 7, 1 John 4 v 6
 
Not that difficult. These things have been defined and argued for quite a long time, as you know. It's just odd when someone tries to post it as if it's new and conclusive and not easy to spot for what it is.

Since you think you have such a good handle on the subject, why didn't you answer my question: What wags what: Action wags the will or does the will wag action? Did Jesus choose to go the Cross route after he was hanging on it, or before the God-hating world nailed Him to it?
 
laughable really, really that making God look stupid, but more than likely doing what a lot of people do m, putting God inside a box.

The only thing I have some element of concern over is whether the person still has to to choose after they've been enabled.

Which would then fall into empowering grace, if once they've been enabled they then don't have to choose, does it fall into irresistible grace, I get confused over that idea it stuck in my head long ago.

theres a consistency about certain things between man and god from the beginning to the end based upon how mankind is designed by God to function and live

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: ( freedom )

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: ( choice )

for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”( consequence )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the first man ever born after they sinned and came to know good and evil


“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right,

sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Now we see man is in a conflict caught between good and evil. But still there’s an option and results of each choice and action.

Then hundreds of years after when the law eventually came to the newly formed children of Israel still they are in the same old boat of choice and consequence

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15-19‬ ‭

then long after we still see the same principle of the same option

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Throughout the ot prophets he calls israel to repentance and warns what will happen if they don’t repent of serving other gods . and Still when Jesus came same principles

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Still after Jesus ascended to heaven same thing cain was told in different words ….” If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s epistles still hold the same

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or evil . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger……. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-8, 11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

All the way to Christs final statements in the Bible

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭

My question is did God make cain unable To do good and be accepted ? Or did cain choose the evil when he was faced with his choice ?

did god create us wrong that we can’t do what he commands us to do ? Or do we corrupt our own selves by choosing the evil set before us along with life ?

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( life and blessing )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( death and cursing )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

It seems god has always made us able but we continually rebel against him because of the evil we partake of in the world . It’s confusing when we begin with the proposition we’re incapable that sort of puts the owness for our failures on our creator I believe Adam , cain , and so on we’re all capable but also corrupt by the evil they partook of continually in the world
 
I do not recall saying anything at all to you about predestination, so I don't know why you think I must be talking about it

You keep trying to explain to me that we don't have a free will. And not having free will would mean that there is total predestination.

Hey, I guess that would make the homo's right too huh? That he was born like that, lol. No. He made choices.
 
You keep trying to explain to me that we don't have a free will. And not having free will would mean that there is total predestination.

Hey, I guess that would make the homo's right too huh? That he was born like that, lol. No. He made choices.

Indeed he (and all other sinners) did! Choices that perfectly align with his evil nature. [/QUOTE]

Prov 11:6
6 The righteousness of the upright delivers them,

but the unfaithful are trapped by evil desires.
NIV

Sounds like the "unfaithful" are in dire need of rescuing grace!
 
It's impossible for any mere mortal that has an inherently evil heart to have a will that is "free", since that heart is not and cannot be free FROM corruption, sin, evil desires, the world and the devil. If man's heart is in such great shape as to be glibly and implicitly labeled as being "free" then why has God promised to give his covenant people a new heart? What is the point to a new heart if not to produce godly desires within it, which is not possible with the evil heart with which we were born? Only the Creator's heart is totally free FROM any corruption, which make His will truly free -- free to be holy, righteous and good all the time. But a will that is in bondage to and is a prisoner to sin can be never be free in the libertine sense; yet, this is exactly what you FWers believe! You think your will is unrestrained by any conventions of morality. You FWers obviously believe that freedom is only a one-sided coin.
And yet, once God manifest Himself to a person they're able to choose one way or another and the BIBLE tells us so. That means your human reasoning is severely flawed. I am only confident in what I am proclaiming because I am quoting the Bible word for word, unlike the Reformed Doctrine.
 
And yet, once God manifest Himself to a person they're able to choose one way or another and the BIBLE tells us so. That means your human reasoning is severely flawed. I am only confident in what I am proclaiming because I am quoting the Bible word for word, unlike the Reformed Doctrine.

And that manifestation was not by His grace?

And my reasoning is flawed? We can get purity out of what is impure? A bad tree can produce good fruit?

Please give me one biblical example of what you speak, i.e. God manifesting himself to a person.

Also, how does God today in this New Covenant economy manifest himself to his people?