Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Jordon said:
Those who are bound to sin are also in bondage to sin, and they don't really have free will, even if people in bondage are set free there then bound to righteousness, simply put a person in it's falling state would not really have any free will, accept perhaps the feeling that they long for freedom perhaps.
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No not really.

[Gen 32:24 KJV]
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

[Gen 32:25 KJV]
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

[Gen 32:26 KJV]
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

[Gen 32:27 KJV]
And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.

[Gen 32:28 KJV]
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed H3201 (overcome).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to prevail, overcome, endure, have power, be able
    1. (Qal)
      1. to be able, be able to gain or accomplish, be able to endure, be able to reach
      2. to prevail, prevail over or against, overcome, be victor
      3. to have ability, have strength


[Rev 2:7 KJV]
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[Rev 2:26 KJV]
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

[Rev 21:7 KJV]
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
 
Rufus said:
Grace is the Primary Cause of Faith. Faith isn't something that is added but rather is a fulfillment of God's intended purpose.
Click to expand...

We can take this as monergistic or non-monergistic. So, knowing your predisposition it becomes a case in point of how men can speak a word or phrase and possibly find some agreement only to find out at some later point that they are speaking a different language and are actually in disagreement.

Where this started:
  • Grace only saves when unassisted! Anything added to grace immediately cancels out grace.
In closing response to you:
  • You're attempting to assert monergism by redefining faith as a ‘fulfillment’. But this fails, because it still makes salvation contingent on a subsequent event. Whether faith is caused or chosen, its necessity introduces assistance—thus grace is not truly unassisted.
 
cv5 said:
No not really.

[Gen 32:24 KJV]
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

[Gen 32:25 KJV]
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

[Gen 32:26 KJV]
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

[Gen 32:27 KJV]
And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.

[Gen 32:28 KJV]
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed H3201 (overcome).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to prevail, overcome, endure, have power, be able
    1. (Qal)
      1. to be able, be able to gain or accomplish, be able to endure, be able to reach
      2. to prevail, prevail over or against, overcome, be victor
      3. to have ability, have strength


[Rev 2:7 KJV]
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[Rev 2:26 KJV]
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

[Rev 21:7 KJV]
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Click to expand...
when you say no not really are you in any partial agreement.

And I never point blank said you where trying to find the wrong favour, I said if you are that's sad.

The scripture you posted is beautiful, but not so.beautiful if the last three passages leave God out.

As in he that overcome, should not be read as he that overcome by him self. He that overcome, should should also include the time when God for-knew you.

Why often I've found in life it's also easy to not see God in the scripture that directly aimed at you. Or where ever you see a sentence with the word you in, a person can quite easily forget God was there also and also dis associate the spirit being there.

The time when God for-knew is the time when God for-knew long before you where born.

Because he is the keeper of all time.

So say tomorrow God speaks to you, in way you could say that is God sending you a message from the future.

There's hope in those sentiments.

You seem like a pretty intelligent person, I'm sure you can understand this
 
Rufus said:
But then why doesn't scripture tell us that both A&E were deceived!? My bible tells me only Eve was deceived.
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Gen 2:16-17
God spoke these words directly to Adam before Eve was created. Did Eve learn about God's command through Adam? If so, does that have any bearing on them being treated differently?
 
Jordon said:
1)when you say no not really are you in any partial agreement

2)The scripture you posted is beautiful,
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1) No. Quite the contrary
2) but do you grasp what is being coveyed?

Because if you did you would no longer be a Calvinist. In an instant, a moment of clarity, a eureka moment you would abandon the whole shebang.

Oh well. Here's wishing you better luck next time.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Adam ... instead of eating ... what would have happened if Adam had called on His Father rather than taking things into his own hands. Waste of time, really, because we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube ... just some pondering I do every now and again ...
.
Click to expand...

We must be on the best course for the best end result. In the end I doubt there will be any "what if" left to wonder. For men and angels, it will simply be cased closed and maybe a hall of records to look up every one of the what if's and see how our Father answered and proved every one of them. Try to imagine the number. Some of us will likely not even care. We know now that we are where we're supposed to be. It'll be even more evident when we see Him as He is and finally know what we truly are.
 
cv5 said:
Eve believed the lies of Satan. Adam did not. A crucial distinction.

The assumption is that Adam endured multiple attacks from Satan. Who knows how many. But Eve, whom God gave to Adam for him to watch over and protect, was at one point left vulnerable. And succumbed. Adam blamed himself for his own failures in the matter.

Two Adams, two brides, two gardens, two men in agony of grief for the sins of the bride. It's all there.

Hear the lectures for the whole story.

BTW.....Adam in effect DEFEATED Satan. His calculated gamble to trust God to get the job done worked.
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Going by your man-exalting theology, it doesn't appear that anyone has a thing to worry about if they die in Adam. Adam will save them, too! After all...that's what any self-respecting hero would do! Adam would rescue all his descendants just like he rescued Eve. :rolleyes:
But Adam still screwed up. One would think that he would have beat God to the punch and been the one to have told the serpent that he's going to place enmity between his wife and the tempter. :rolleyes:
 
Rufus said:
Grace is the Primary Cause of Faith.
Click to expand...
No not really.
BELIEF is the cause of faith. Always has been always will be.

You see....when super-determinists talk about "grace" in their self-imposed conceptual framework, what they really mean is "pre-birth sovereign lottery winner".
The term "grace" is used to make the horrific doctrine more palatable to the ignorant and unaware.

[Gal 3:6-9 NKJV]
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
 
Rufus said:
Going by your man-exalting theology, it doesn't appear that anyone has a thing to worry about if they die in Adam. Adam will save them, too! After all...that's what any self-respecting hero would do! Adam would rescue all his descendants just like he rescued Eve. :rolleyes:
But Adam still screwed up. One would think that he would have beat God to the punch and been the one to have told the serpent that he's going to place enmity between his wife and the tempter. :rolleyes:
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Well.....it just so happens that I packed away 40 or 60 odd hours of superbly presented analytical lectures on the matter.

Glad I did. It makes the folly of your opinions starkly obvious.
 
studier said:
We can take this as monergistic or non-monergistic. So, knowing your predisposition it becomes a case in point of how men can speak a word or phrase and possibly find some agreement only to find out at some later point that they are speaking a different language and are actually in disagreement.

Where this started:
  • Grace only saves when unassisted! Anything added to grace immediately cancels out grace.
In closing response to you:
  • You're attempting to assert monergism by redefining faith as a ‘fulfillment’. But this fails, because it still makes salvation contingent on a subsequent event. Whether faith is caused or chosen, its necessity introduces assistance—thus grace is not truly unassisted.
Click to expand...
You're attempting to assert monergism by redefining faith as a ‘fulfillment’.

Yea....the super-determinists are notorious for conjuring up such fallacies and absurdities.
 
BillyBob said:
Poorly worded perhaps! However, it seems possible to me that a person can come to realize/believe that there is in fact a God and at the same time have no desire or faith in Him, as a savior.
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I actually think it was well worded and, on the surface, an accurate statement.

Having read your posts, I guess a question would be why you seem to think there is no decision and choice made by men between believing He exists and having "absolutely no faith in Him".
 
Rufus said:
Grace is the Primary Cause of Faith. Faith isn't something that is added but rather is a fulfillment of God's intended purpose.
Click to expand...
So ah you are telling us that faith in GRACE is the gospel message?

Doesn't make sense to me.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Adam ... instead of eating ... what would have happened if Adam had called on His Father rather than taking things into his own hands. Waste of time, really, because we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube ... just some pondering I do every now and again ...
.
Click to expand...

Or better yet...if Adam were this noble, pious, humble, God-fearing superhero as CV5 would have us believe, why didn't he just obey God rather than following in the footsteps of Eve? And after she sinned why didn't he intercede and plead with God to be merciful to her and offer his life in exchange for hers, since he knew what penalty she would incur? That's what a real godly champion would have done! Did not Moses do that very thing after the golden calf incident when he offered to step into the gap between an angry God and sinful Hebrews by offering his own life in place of theirs? Yet, we have professing Christians singing the praises of a sinner by painting him as some kind of superhero. I suppose in the eyes of the CV5s of this world, righteous Moses must have been a weak imp by offering his own life in exchange for his sinful people's.
 
studier said:
I actually think it was well worded and, on the surface, an accurate statement.

Having read your posts, I guess a question would be why you seem to think there is no decision and choice made by men between believing He exists and having "absolutely no faith in Him".
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The vast majority of the world believes "in God" (i.e. what or who they think is God as they define Him); but the same world doesn't want anything to do with the one true God, as defined in the bible. They want no relationship with the God of revelation. Why? Because there is no Fear of God in their eyes!

You seem to forget what the essence, the corpus, the warf 'n' woof of Christianity is: It's God rescuing sinners in order to restore a broken relationship between them and Himself. The vast majority of the world has no personal, intimate, loving, covenantal relationship with its Creator -- even though most in the world are religiously-inclined. The ancient world bears truth to this statement, for their idols or the records thereof bear witness to this fact.
 
studier said:
I actually think it was well worded and, on the surface, an accurate statement.

Having read your posts, I guess a question would be why you seem to think there is no decision and choice made by men between believing He exists and having "absolutely no faith in Him".
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I believe as I do because of my personal experience.
I do not think that man can place his trust in God before being renewed by the HS. Then, we are enabled to both hear and believe His word. This work by God the Father/Son/Spirit is not given to all men, but is reserved for His elect - and is given by grace. Totally undeserved!
 
cv5 said:
1) No. Quite the contrary
2) but do you grasp what is being coveyed?

Because if you did you would no longer be a Calvinist. In an instant, a moment of clarity, a eureka moment you would abandon the whole shebang.

Oh well. Here's wishing you better luck next time.
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why would you no longer want a person to be Calvinist ?

I can't read your view points in scripture if you don't specify exactly what point you where trying to make me see.

I can only guess your point is based upon mankind having a free will to overcome by his own will, which you believe disproves keys points of Calvinism

Such people who believe these things ended up taking Gods authority into there own hands, there is numerous passages on this, a famous one being when Moses parted the sea through the aid of God.

But really just another key point here is disproving points of view on calvinism based on free will, is really not wise because you could end up disproving way to much.

Because you end up making Calvinism the target to disprove anything and everything, when really mankind in it's fallen state does not really have any free will, which goes way back way before Calvinism even came into existence. The core tennants are more important.
 
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