Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

No I wouldn’t . I believe Adam sinned. After his wife was beguiled and ate the forbidden fruit and then spoke to him about it.

here’s a few reasons why

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6-7‬ ‭

Notice they both ate it and then thier eyes were opened and they knew ?

it’s not that eve ate and then later on Adam felt sorry for her and ate also commiting suicide there’s nothing there to create any of that. It’s that she was beguiled by the serpents words to her and changed her belief about the fruit and she saw it differently than god showed it to them as death she saw it like this after the serpent presented it and of course she ate

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When God speaks to Adam he first blames God sort of indirectly and also eve for him eating “ the woman you gave me caused it “

“And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭

Blaming eve for his own transgression didn’t remove his responsability with god though look what he points to as the problem

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So from all this my own thought is that God told the truth to them about the fruit

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

satan taught her a lie and also indirectly taught them that god lied to them about the fruit to keep it away from them.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬

My belief is that they believed the lie of the devil “ you will not surely die “ and that’s the reasoning for why he also ate it , not that he was beguiled like eve but that he had god saying this

“thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

And then heard this contrary word from a contrary source his wife who hears it from the serpent .

“the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”

And Adam chose the alternate source and word breaking faith with God and following a foreign word believing a lie and following it into death just as god warned and warns throughout the Bible New Testament and old

like Adam we are constantly challenged between what we know god said like eve knew to not eat the fruit , like Adam knew not to eat the fruit …….. and the temptations and whispers of the serpent that come to us through the world we live in

I believe Adam fell when he faced a contrary doctrine regarding a deadly knowledge not meant for mankinds mind and heart.

think of eve Satan never said to her “ the fruit is really pleasant to the eye “ yet that’s something she already thought . This tells us she was looking at it closely and for some reason it pleases her to gaze upon it .

Yet she hadn’t eaten or decided to eat something tells me she might have touched a price before because she says “ we shouldn’t touch it either unless we die “ she shows she is afraid to eat it because of what god said but Satan removes that fear god put in them about the fruit by telling her …… “ you won’t die (like the lord said) ,but he knows it will make you as gods knowing good and evil “

“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:

but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not a bad post given that we don't agree on much. Didn't know you had it in ya.. But there's one detail that you have wrong: The serpent did not tempt Adam. Scripture makes this abundantly clear.

1 Tim 2:13
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve . 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
NIV

And I would add that while Eve became a sinner, Adam became a transgressor. Why? Because Adam sinned with his eyes wide shut... if you get my drift. "To whom much is given, much will be required" -- and Adam had much greater knowledge of God and empirical evidence of his existence. Just some food for thought...

 

[Rufus]

Adam became one flesh with his wife as instructed in Scripture:

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Adam is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ [by stark contrasts only] ... Who left His Father and became flesh ...
.

FTFY!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Not a bad post given that we don't agree on much. Didn't know you had it in ya.. But there's one detail that you have wrong: The serpent did not tempt Adam. Scripture makes this abundantly clear.

1 Tim 2:13
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve . 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
NIV

And I would add that while Eve became a sinner, Adam became a transgressor. Why? Because Adam sinned with his eyes wide shut... if you get my drift. "To whom much is given, much will be required" -- and Adam had much greater knowledge of God and empirical evidence of his existence. Just some food for thought...

“But there's one detail that you have wrong: The serpent did not tempt Adam. Scripture makes this abundantly clear.

1 Tim 2:13
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve . 14 And Adam was not the one deceived;”

Being deceived isnt the same as being tempted Adam sinned too but for a different reason

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


…..my whole point was that she was deceived and she ate the fruit

…..he was tempted by her words which came from the serpent and he ate the fruit.

they both sinned one was beguiled the other waste tempted. Doesn’t matter why we sinned

 

[Rufus]

Not to mention the BOLD in the post you responded to.........WHOLE DUTY.

Which no one can do...which I'm thinking might be the reason that God sovereignly, supernaturally, efficaciously and graciously instills the fear of the Lord into his elect's HEARTS (not to be confused with volition) that would flush out the old, evil desires and allow godly ones to fill the vacuum so that God's people will gladly perform that "whole duty". But I'm sure you'll find this idea really far-fetched, right?

 

[Rufus]

“But there's one detail that you have wrong: The serpent did not tempt Adam. Scripture makes this abundantly clear.

1 Tim 2:13
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve . 14 And Adam was not the one deceived;”

Being deceived isnt the same as being tempted Adam sinned too but for a different reason

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


…..my whole point was that she was deceived and she ate the fruit

…..he was tempted by her words which came from the serpent and he ate the fruit.

they both sinned one was beguiled the other waste tempted. Doesn’t matter why we sinned

But then why doesn't scripture tell us that both A&E were deceived!? My bible tells me only Eve was deceived.

 

[cv5]

No I wouldn’t . I believe Adam sinned. After his wife was beguiled and ate the forbidden fruit and then spoke to him about it.

here’s a few reasons why

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6-7‬ ‭

Notice they both ate it and then thier eyes were opened and they knew ?

it’s not that eve ate and then later on Adam felt sorry for her and ate also commiting suicide there’s nothing there to create any of that. It’s that she was beguiled by the serpents words to her and changed her belief about the fruit and she saw it differently than god showed it to them as death she saw it like this after the serpent presented it and of course she ate

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When God speaks to Adam he first blames God sort of indirectly and also eve for him eating “ the woman you gave me caused it “

“And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭

Blaming eve for his own transgression didn’t remove his responsability with god though look what he points to as the problem

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So from all this my own thought is that God told the truth to them about the fruit

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

satan taught her a lie and also indirectly taught them that god lied to them about the fruit to keep it away from them.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬

My belief is that they believed the lie of the devil “ you will not surely die “ and that’s the reasoning for why he also ate it , not that he was beguiled like eve but that he had god saying this

“thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

And then heard this contrary word from a contrary source his wife who hears it from the serpent .

“the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”

And Adam chose the alternate source and word breaking faith with God and following a foreign word believing a lie and following it into death just as god warned and warns throughout the Bible New Testament and old

like Adam we are constantly challenged between what we know god said like eve knew to not eat the fruit , like Adam knew not to eat the fruit …….. and the temptations and whispers of the serpent that come to us through the world we live in

I believe Adam fell when he faced a contrary doctrine regarding a deadly knowledge not meant for mankinds mind and heart.

think of eve Satan never said to her “ the fruit is really pleasant to the eye “ yet that’s something she already thought . This tells us she was looking at it closely and for some reason it pleases her to gaze upon it .

Yet she hadn’t eaten or decided to eat something tells me she might have touched a price before because she says “ we shouldn’t touch it either unless we die “ she shows she is afraid to eat it because of what god said but Satan removes that fear god put in them about the fruit by telling her …… “ you won’t die (like the lord said) ,but he knows it will make you as gods knowing good and evil “

“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:

but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Eve believed the lies of Satan. Adam did not. A crucial distinction.

The assumption is that Adam endured multiple attacks from Satan. Who knows how many. But Eve, whom God gave to Adam for him to watch over and protect, was at one point left vulnerable. And succumbed. Adam blamed himself for his own failures in the matter.

Two Adams, two brides, two gardens, two men in agony of grief for the sins of the bride. It's all there.

Hear the lectures for the whole story.

BTW.....Adam in effect DEFEATED Satan. His calculated gamble to trust God to get the job done worked.

 

[Jordon]

Proverbs 25 v 12 Like an earring of gold or an ornament of fine gold is a wise man’s rebuke to a listening ear.

wise words .
All tho I won't be waisting my time with the absolute garbage I've had to put up with lately here.

I won't be responding anymore to quite few people in this thread even the latest wild accusations of my character in 4 posts from four different people which I've just briefly read, but have no intention what so ever in giving it the time of day, they know who they are and there probably waiting for a reply but they ain't getting anymore of my time, as I like to spend quality time not trash time trading insults with people waiting to dig there hook in.

As I can see a pattern emerging, where the insults just keep on coming if you respond.

And no matter what you say gets twisted to mean something else.

Hatred is pretty much evident in these people's heartsit is truly sad.
I think a couple of them may be suffering a mental illness so it probably best if I just don't respond.

Either that or they've been handed over to a retrobait mind,

I have been reading this thread for a while, weeks in fact before I even responded I pretty much ignored hate speech after hate speech for weeks before I even decided to finayl tell them to quit.

I don't even post that much here, I might post once in a week, I mainly just read what people are writing, sometimes I may just post once a week gives a quick thumbs up to a post and then just come back the next week, I like reading some of the topics,

And I'm really no trouble to anyone, I prefer to take part in friendly topics, or discussions wheres there mature.

I was reading quite a lot of posts and I was just wanting to say something but I just thought no don't do it, it's ridiculous to even argue about free will at the end of day, freedom being stolen from you is never a nice discussion, it leads no where,

But anyhow it's been nice to see some maturity from people in the thread, finishing on better a note, I just hope some other Muppet doesn't hijack this post ,

 

[cv5]

wise words .
All tho I won't be waisting my time with the absolute garbage I've had to put up with lately here.

I won't be responding anymore to quite rew people in this thread even the latest wild accusations of my character in 4 posts from four different people which I've just briefly read, but have no intention what so ever in giving it the time of day, they know who are and there probably waiting for a reply but they ain't getting anymore of my time, as I like to spend quality time not trash time trading insults with people waiting to dig there hook in.

As I can see a pattern emerging, where the insults just keep on coming if you respond.

And no matter what you say gets twisted to mean something else.

Hatred is pretty much evident in these people's heartsit is truly sad.
I think a couple of them may be suffering a mental illness so it probably best if I just don't respond.

Either that or they've been handed over to a retrobait mind,

I have been reading this thread for a while, weeks in fact before I even responded I pretty much ignored hate speech after hate speech for weeks before I even decided to finayl tell them to quit.

I don't even post that much here, I might post once in a week, I mainly just read what people are writing, sometimes I may just post once a week gives a quick thumbs up to a post and then just come back the next week, I like reading some of the topics,

And I'm really no trouble to anyone, I prefer to take part in friendly topics, or discussions wheres there mature.

I was reading quite a lot of posts and I was just wanting to say something but I just thought no don't do it, it's ridiculous to even argue about free will at the end of day, freedom being stolen from you is never a nice discussion, it leads no where,

But anyhow it's been nice to see some maturity from people in the thread, finishing on better a note, I just hope I don't some other Muppet hijacking this post ,

OK buddy. And don't hesitate to chime in if you actually intend on producing/posting something of value.

We need legit Bible scholars around here. Ad hoc referees....not so much.

 

[Jordon]

Yep see there you go another insult

 

[reneweddaybyday]

FTFY!

I'm not surprised ... you do the same with what the Author of Scripture wrote.



case in point:

Adam's sin in scripture is characterized as transgression, whereas Eve's is not.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

ESV translates the verse as follows: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
.

 

[Jordon]

There no point in adding something of value to people who are undoubtedly posting with the intent to make you feel worthless.

Such attitudes come from. People who are undoubtedly have a life that isn't worth living and they want to pull you down to there level.

People with a couldn't care less attitude about how they address people will always be someone to keep your distance from, because your in danger of having you rose stolen.

I personally like people and I personally prefer kindness.

Yep I you could call that valuable but I doubt you will

 

[cv5]

I'm not surprised ... you do the same with what the Author of Scripture wrote.



case in point:



1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

ESV translates the verse as follows: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
.

Game set match!

 

[cv5]

Yep see there you go another insult

Not all all. Consider it more of a pensive plea. No need to be so negative.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The difference is Adam when he was tempted sinned .

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Adam ... instead of eating ... what would have happened if Adam had called on His Father rather than taking things into his own hands. Waste of time, really, because we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube ... just some pondering I do every now and again ...
.

 

[cv5]

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Adam ... instead of eating ... what would have happened if Adam had called on His Father rather than taking things into his own hands. Waste of time, really, because we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube ... just some pondering I do every now and again ...
.

It seems that Eve would have been otherwise unsavable. The federal head needed to die also.....and be replaced by a new eternal and infinite Federal Head Kinsman Redeemer in order for the entire human race to be redeemed.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It seems that Eve would have been otherwise unsavable. The federal head needed to die also.....and be replaced by a new eternal and infinite Federal Head Kinsman Redeemer in order for the entire human race to be redeemed.

yeah ... I know ... I just used to wonder ...
.

 

[Magenta]

wise words .
All tho I won't be waisting my time with the absolute garbage I've had to put up with lately here.

I won't be responding anymore to quite few people in this thread even the latest wild accusations of my character in 4 posts from four different people which I've just briefly read, but have no intention what so ever in giving it the time of day, they know who they are and there probably waiting for a reply but they ain't getting anymore of my time, as I like to spend quality time not trash time trading insults with people waiting to dig there hook in.

As I can see a pattern emerging, where the insults just keep on coming if you respond.

And no matter what you say gets twisted to mean something else.

Hatred is pretty much evident in these people's heartsit is truly sad.
I think a couple of them may be suffering a mental illness so it probably best if I just don't respond.

Either that or they've been handed over to a retrobait mind,

I have been reading this thread for a while, weeks in fact before I even responded I pretty much ignored hate speech after hate speech for weeks before I even decided to finayl tell them to quit.

I don't even post that much here, I might post once in a week, I mainly just read what people are writing, sometimes I may just post once a week gives a quick thumbs up to a post and then just come back the next week, I like reading some of the topics,

And I'm really no trouble to anyone, I prefer to take part in friendly topics, or discussions wheres there mature.

I was reading quite a lot of posts and I was just wanting to say something but I just thought no don't do it, it's ridiculous to even argue about free will at the end of day, freedom being stolen from you is never a nice discussion, it leads no where,

But anyhow it's been nice to see some maturity from people in the thread, finishing on better a note, I just hope some other Muppet doesn't hijack this post ,

I understand completely: there is no up with them, just a downward spiral circling the drain, and
I can guess who at least three of the four are, probably all four, and I largely do not engage them,
and others as well... those who have proven to be untrustworthy, some heart-breakingly so. But I do
hope that you have gained something from your time spent reading... it seems some enter this thread
thinking it is about one thing when in actual fact it is, surprise surprise, about what the Bible says of man,
not what philosophy or humanism says of man, and when you get right down to it, what the Bible has
to say of man does not match what free willers say. That is why they are called Pelagian heretics.

Proverbs 9 v 8 + 18 v 2 Do not rebuke a mocker, or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in airing his opinions.

 

[decipher]

Eve believed the lies of Satan. Adam did not. A crucial distinction.

The assumption is that Adam endured multiple attacks from Satan. Who knows how many. But Eve, whom God gave to Adam for him to watch over and protect, was at one point left vulnerable. And succumbed. Adam blamed himself for his own failures in the matter.

Two Adams, two brides, two gardens, two men in agony of grief for the sins of the bride. It's all there.

Hear the lectures for the whole story.

BTW.....Adam in effect DEFEATED Satan. His calculated gamble to trust God to get the job done worked.

What was the job that got done?

 

[Jordon]

I understand completely: there is no up with them, just a downward spiral circling the drain, and
I can guess who at least three of the four are, probably all four, and I largely do not engage them,
and others as well... those who have proven to be untrustworthy, some heart-breakingly so. But I do
hope that you have gained something from your time spent reading... it seems some enter this thread
thinking it is about one thing when in actual fact it is, surprise surprise, about what the Bible says of man,
not what philosophy or humanism says of man, and when you get right down to it, what the Bible has
to say of man does not match what free willers say. That is why they are called Pelagian heretics.

Proverbs 9 v 8 + 18 v 2 Do not rebuke a mocker, or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in airing his opinions.

yep I can understand where your coming from, it's all a bit sad really,

I can understand people having a tendency to put there guard up, as I realise some people here could have put there guards up.

But I feel some have built that wall to high.

But how I feel really is there is two kinds of people those who are bound to sin and those who are bound to righteousness,

Those who are bound to sin are also in bondage to sin, and they don't really have free will, even if people in bondage are set free there then bound to righteousness, simply put a person in it's falling state would not really have any free will, accept perhaps the feeling that they long for freedom perhaps.

 

[studier]

Yeah...just like the Ethiopian can choose to change the color of his skin and the leopard can choose to change its spots. Take your own advice and run your tripe through a "fallacies check".

And man's conscience is just as corrupt as man's heart is since it's a faculty that finds its home in the heart. Why don't you expound for us how well the collective conscience of the Jews in both their northern and southern kingdoms historically worked out for them. I'd bet my last dollar that you probably think their collective conscience workout out as fabulously as well for them as it did for all the antedilluvians who perished in the flood, since there were 8 strong and mighty people who managed to save themselves.

IOW, no answer but non-sequitur and ad hominem.

The Remnant.

All that work and you negated your own premise with your first Scripture reference. No matter how hard you try you will not be able to explain away the volition of man. It's one of the keys to the whole story.