Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

Mankind would have been "forsaken."

Just like the dinosaur was.

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” ​

(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46​

The Cross was the atonement that allowed for man to continue living, in spite of man would not deserve to be alive otherwise.

How did man deserve to be alive before the cross?

 

[Rufus]

All of us... not just you.

Well...I'm just like Israel of old who was called out of this world. I'm not part of this world, so I'll let you presume to be the spokesman for this ungodly world and for the prince of this world.

 

[cv5]

What God says about what He created ... very good ... (Gen 1:31) ... good = pleasant.

And God placed Adam in Eden ... Eden = pleasure.


Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
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Of course.

You see, the super-determinists think that God created things originally EVIL, which of course implies that He is....evil. And the origin of evil.

This is Satan's standard argument BTW.

And to think that any Christian would avidly believe Satan is a little more than disturbing.

 

[Kroogz]

No. Adam essentially committed suicide in a gambit to save the Woman. God was gracious and merciful and got the job done that Adam could not. Adam also knew that God would do it and redeem both her and him.

Two gardens. Two Adams. Two sinning brides. Two intense episodes of grief in making the fateful choice.

Yea....it's all there.

Good luck.

I have a superb teacher. But Chronister will take you even deeper!

The world tries its best to hide these teachers........They have doctrinal truth.

 

[Rufus]

So you were a humble man. That is why you received His Grace.

That's what GRACE does! Grace humiliates a man, while simultaneously exalting the Divine Holy Gift Giver.

 

[Kroogz]

That's what GRACE does! Grace humiliates a man, while simultaneously exalting the Divine Holy Gift Giver.

So you were proud when you received His Grace.

So which is it @Rufus?

Did you receive grace as a humble man or were you a proud man?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That is a totally ridicules thought! If He drew all people to Himself, all would come.

not all believe when God comes to draw all people to Himself ... just like in the wilderness when the snake was raised up ... only the ones who looked were healed.


Numbers 21:6-9 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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[sawdust]

If you'll indulge me I would like to back up a little bit.
What did Jesus accomplish on the cross?

He paid the penalty for our sin. He was forsaken (cut off) and died physically. This is the wages of sin brought about because of Adam's sin.

If the wages of sin were more than this we would be born into the lake of fire for having rejected Christ. The Lord gives us the opportunity to live and know Christ before He judges us for our evil.

When you can show me He suffered forever in the lake of fire, then you have a case for the penalty of our sin being the lake of fire. Until then you are like a judge sending a man to prison for life for a misdemeanour.

 

[Rufus]

Of course.

You see, the super-determinists think that God created things originally EVIL, which of course implies that He is....evil. And the origin of evil.

This is Satan's standard argument BTW.

And to think that any Christian would avidly believe Satan is a little more than disturbing.

Do you also know that God HATES liars (Prov 6:19)!? Who here has said or even implied what I highlighted above?

 

[Rufus]

not all believe when God comes to draw all people to Himself ... just like in the wilderness when the snake was raised up ... only the ones who looked were healed.


Numbers 21:6-9 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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I debunked that ill-conceived interpretation long ago! What you conveniently leave out from the larger context is that God did not give an opportunity for ALL the Israelites to look upon the bronze serpent. It was only AFTER a bunch of Israelites had already died did he give the remaining group such an opportunity. Learn how to read and exegete scripture already! Quit reading your EOE drivel into passages of holy writ!

 

[Rufus]

John 17:20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Are the super-determinists wish-casting a passage into oblivion again? One that they would rather choose to delete from all existence?

Why is it always the passages that proclaim hope of salvation for everyone that they find so offensive?

There is no "hope of salvation" for the world offered in Jn 17: 20-23. The only hope is for "them" -- the elect sheep.

 

[Rufus]

How did man deserve to be alive before the cross?

Oh...that's easy. That's mankind eternal, inalienable, God-given right, don't ya know?

 

[Kroogz]

That is a totally ridicules thought! If He drew all people to Himself, all would come.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

 

[BillyBob]

If you understood Hebrew as I do naturally you would see both the word meaning and Numerical Value that shows it's not an action response set into one specific motion but it's a word that means could go either way.

In the Hebrew Psalm 65:4 reads: "Happy is the man whom Thou choosest, and bringest near, That he may dwell in Thy courts.

You should really understand the Old Testament wasn't written originally in English so English is the last language one should try to interpret from.

He MAY dwell doesn't mean he always will because man has free will to choose like you do by using the English translation as if it was the original language God used in the Bible.

Thank goodness I do NOT understand Hebrew as you do!
Let's lay aside "That he may dwell in Thy courts"..... That is the result and has nothing to do with choosing!
That leaves us with "Happy is the man whom Thou choosest, and bringest near". There is nothing in that statement that indicates it could go either way! It simply states that God did the choosing and brought him near. Have you ever considered that it is you who do not understand?
The NKJV makes this very clear:

Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You,
Psa 65:4

 

[lrs68]

Then what reason does a man have for being "happy" if he has zero assurance that God has actually brought him near to Himself? After all, in the final analysis that man has to place his trust in himself that he can whip his "freewill" into shape. He has to trust his own wicked and utterly deceitful heart to get him into the pearly gates.

But it was God that brought man near to Himself.

God presented Himself as a Burning Bush to Moses and Moses said in Verse 3 I WILL TURN AND LOOK AT THE BUSH ON FIRE.

God presented Himself to Moses and Moses chooses to do the right thing just like David explained in Psalms 65:4.

 

[Kroogz]

After all, even some FWers here do believe that salvation is a process,

None that I have seen. Salvation is a moment in time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.....Eternal life.

Sanctification is a process in time.

And there have been many posts about "conveniently " leaving out parts of verses. So I will add the latter of Acts 16:31

"you and your household."

Equal privilege and equal opportunity. Teach it, live it, love it.

 

[Rufus]

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Out of context! Jn 12 isn't teaching that Jesus will draw all people w/o exception to himself. The CONTEXT is that Jesus would draw all people w/o distinction to himself, i.e. Jews and Gentiles. The text itself bears this truth out, since both Jews (but not all) and Gentiles (again not all) sought Jesus out in that chapter. Learn how to exegete scripture!

 

[lrs68]

Thank goodness I do NOT understand Hebrew as you do!
Let's lay aside "That he may dwell in Thy courts"..... That is the result and has nothing to do with choosing!
That leaves us with "Happy is the man whom Thou choosest, and bringest near". There is nothing in that statement that indicates it could go either way! It simply states that God did the choosing and brought him near. Have you ever considered that it is you who do not understand?
The NKJV makes this very clear:

Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You,
Psa 65:4

Your 65:4 is the incorrect translation which is why I presented it found in the actual Hebrew Tanakh.

And yes, your post proves you definitely don't know Hebrew at all and that's tremendously sad knowing that's the Language God used to write the entire Old Testament aside from the few Verses in Aramaic which is very close to Hebrew as it gets.

 

[Genez]

How did man deserve to be alive before the cross?

In God's mind, Jesus was already slain before the foundations of the world.
By virtue of that truth?
And, that God can not fail?
Is the reason man was not forsaken.

 

[Rufus]

But it was God that brought man near to Himself.

God presented Himself as a Burning Bush to Moses and Moses said in Verse 3 I WILL TURN AND LOOK AT THE BUSH ON FIRE.

God presented Himself to Moses and Moses chooses to do the right thing just like David explained in Psalms 65:4.

Do you suppose that Moses was a God-fearing man or not when he encountered the theophany?

And the fact that God himself chooses men to bring near to Himself should tell you that God will not fail in what He has purposed to do.
No mere finite, fallible, weak, feeble, impotent mortal can thwart God's plans or purposes or frustrate them.