Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

I do not believe they were born again ... however, they had been baptized unto John's gospel (Acts 19:3) ... the purpose of John's gospel was to prepare the way of the Lord (John 1:6-7).

I believe Paul then taught the people the way of the Lord more perfectly ... same as what Priscilla and Aquila did when they met up with Apollos ... who also knew only the gospel of John (Acts 18:24-26).

The Ephesians had not rejected John's gospel so they were prepared to receive the gospel of Christ, which when Paul had taught them then they were born again of Holy Spirit.
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I understand what you believe. I still am not sure whether you believe they were saved when Paul met them. Can you just answer this question: were they saved when Paul met them?

 

[Magenta]

Isaiah 55 v 10-11 Just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I understand what you believe. I still am not sure whether you believe they were saved when Paul met them. Can you just answer this question: were they saved when Paul met them?

same answer I gave you before ... they were believers in John's gospel ... does John's gospel bring believers in John's gospel from natural man to born again? Romans 1:16 tells us it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... I do not believe they were born again ... you need to allow God to sort this out in your heart .
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[cv5]

Understanding the outworking of salvation isn't necessary for salvation.

Of course it is extremely important. This is a fundamental aspect of the teaching ministry of the Church.
In fact Paul goes to extraordinary lengths to instruct us RIGHTLY in the ways and means of salvation.
With the utmost precision and voluminous extent.

Furthermore, rightly understanding the outworking of salvation divides the good doctrine from the crazy talk.
And again, Paul insists that we DO UNDERSTAND the basis for sound doctrine whereby we can REJECT the faulty.

Which is of course the reason that I totally reject the "pre-birth lottery" doctrine of the super-determinists.

 

[Cameron143]

same answer I gave you before ... they were believers in John's gospel ... does John's gospel bring believers in John's gospel from natural man to born again? Romans 1:16 tells us it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... I do not believe they were born again ... you need to allow God to sort this out in your heart .
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Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.

 

[cv5]

same answer I gave you before ... they were believers in John's gospel ... does John's gospel bring believers in John's gospel from natural man to born again? Romans 1:16 tells us it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... I do not believe they were born again ... you need to allow God to sort this out in your heart .
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A lot of slippery not very artful dodging going on around here.....

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What do you think happened with the human spirit at the fall?

man was no longer in the image and likeness of God.

Gen 2:17 tells us in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (or dying you shall die).

what do you think happened at the fall?
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[Magenta]

Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.

Free willers seem to near always leave off the second part of that verse: the gospel is the power of God for salvation
to everyone who believes. It is done so often by so many it looks like deliberate distortion to suit their presups.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course it is.
In fact Paul goes to extraordinary lengths to instruct us RIGHTLY in the ways and means of salvation.
With the utmost precision and voluminous extent.

Furthermore, rightly understanding the outworking of salvation divides the good doctrine from the crazy talk.
And again, Paul insists that we DO UNDERSTAND the basis for sound doctrine whereby we can REJECT the faulty.

Which is of course the reason that I totally reject the "pre-birth lottery" doctrine of the super-determinists.

If what you have stated is accurate, then those who do not understand the outworking of salvation cannot be saved. While we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, no one possesses total understanding. According to you, no one can be saved.

The truth is, all that is necessary for salvation is for one to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course it is extremely important. This is a fundamental aspect of the teaching ministry of the Church.
In fact Paul goes to extraordinary lengths to instruct us RIGHTLY in the ways and means of salvation.
With the utmost precision and voluminous extent.

Furthermore, rightly understanding the outworking of salvation divides the good doctrine from the crazy talk.
And again, Paul insists that we DO UNDERSTAND the basis for sound doctrine whereby we can REJECT the faulty.

Which is of course the reason that I totally reject the "pre-birth lottery" doctrine of the super-determinists.

Also, there is a difference between necessary and important. Switching terms always changes the argument.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.

same to you as well ... and, as has been pointed out to me here ... I did omit the words "to everyone who believes" ... that was not intentional on my part ... as @Magenta would have you believe.
.

 

[cv5]

If what you have stated is accurate, then those who do not understand the outworking of salvation cannot be saved. While we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, no one possesses total understanding. According to you, no one can be saved.

The truth is, all that is necessary for salvation is for one to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

What I expressed is that UNDERSTANDING is IMPORTANT. Not ultimately necessary in every case.
Nevertheless, the TRUE doctrine IS required to be preached and understanding it DOES provide the case load that some need to be saved. And Paul did EXACTLY THIS innumerable times in his ministry. And thereby many were saved.

But of course this is implied in my post if you are paying attention.

 

[Cameron143]

What I expressed is that UNDERSTANDING is IMPORTANT. Not ultimately necessary.

But of course this is implied in my post if you are paying attention.

Again, a very odd way to say...You're right.

 

[cv5]

Also, there is a difference between necessary and important. Switching terms always changes the argument.

What is important right now is to prove sound doctrine and disprove the nonsense.

The "pre-birth lottery" being the nonsense.

 

[cv5]

man was no longer in the image and likeness of God.

Gen 2:17 tells us in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (or dying you shall die).

what do you think happened at the fall?
.

I think "marred" not lost.

Is it totally lost at the GWT final judgement? Maybe who knows.

 

[cv5]

Also, there is a difference between necessary and important. Switching terms always changes the argument.

There is a difference between slamming the gate to salvation and ushering people into it.

Some are obsessed with the former and will find out what they have done eventually. To their dismay.

 

[Magenta]

same to you as well ... and, as has been pointed out to me here ... I did omit the words "to everyone who believes" ... that was not intentional on my part ... as @Magenta would have you believe.
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More misrepresentation on your part. The truth of the matter is that that verse gets butchered
by FWers often regardless of how many times correction has been offered, but I never said you
did it intentionally. Anyways, there WAS a reason why you left it off.

 

[Rufus]

Agree. Finite sins by finite creatures will never sum to infinity. Or even come close.

Nonsense! ONE unforgiven, unatoned for sin is infinitely offensive to an infinitely Holy God. No darkness can ever dwell with the Light. This is why Christ's sacrifice on the Cross paid for all the elect's sins (Col 2:13).

just an fyi, Blain ... I am one who does not believe 1 Cor 2:14 includes the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation ... and this has been explained to Magenta more than a few of times.

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There is no indication in 1 Cor 1:18 that those who are perishing cannot know the gospel.

However, 1 Cor 2:14 states the deeper things of God referred to in 1 Cor 2:6-16 cannot be known by the natural man ... why? Because the natural man spoken of in 1 Cor 2:14 consists of:

1) those who are not born again ... they have not taken that first step which would allow them to know spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel; or

2) those who are born again but are immature in their walk with the Lord ... either because they are newly born again and need to feed on the milk of the word or they are carnal believers who follow men as opposed to maturing in the things of God ... these carnal believers also need to continue to feed on the milk of the word according to 1 Cor 3:1-4.

more info to follow concerning 1 Cor 2:14 and the context within which the verse sits ...
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The reason the lost (natural man) considers the gospel to be foolishness is precisely because they DO NOT have any true understanding of it in their HEART. How can they? The natural man is not gifted with the godly disposition of heart known as the Fear of the Lord -- which is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.

 

[Kroogz]

same to you as well ... and, as has been pointed out to me here ... I did omit the words "to everyone who believes" ... that was not intentional on my part ... as @Magenta would have you believe.
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I don't understand the point or the argument being made.

We are inundated with a plethora of posts from the reformed that We are selected and saved THEN in the future we will believe.

Seems to me they try their best to make us believe that the power of Sovereignty saves. The Gospel and believing comes after He Sovereignly saves us.

 

[cv5]

Seems to me they try their best to make us believe that the power of Sovereignty saves. The Gospel and believing comes after He Sovereignly saves us.

Good call there sir.