Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Blain]

Nope. They deny it means what it plainly says. Then they will go on about how the natural man
is only mentioned maybe once? As if that has any bearing on the fact that natural and spiritual
are juxtaposed often throughout Scripture. First comes the natural then the spiritual.

That is why we call them gymnasts. They are full of stunts.

gymnast

I see, so then maybe they cannot be reasoned with then because that doesn't make sense how one can think that way if the natural was able to accept the spiritual then the scriptures would say so but it doesn't and doesn't matter if it is only mentioned once the fact it says so even once should be taken as truth.

 

[Rufus]

Anyone that reduces the probability of the love of God (that so loved the world) is setting a snare for all that very desperately need to believe in it for life, eternal life!

I passed time waiting to finish composing my reply in another thread during the recent downtime by catching up on some entries by Parsons where this statement stood out as a summary of the very meaning of life, "If you believe in the love of God, there are no questions; but if you refuse to believe, there are no answers."

God's familial, covenant love is not universal since his love is conditional in nature. God loves the righteous (Ps 146:8) and He loves those who love Him and keep his commandments (Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:10; 16:27), etc., etc.

When we tell people that "God loves YOU", that could well be a very misleading statement (since we don't know who the elect are), given the conditional nature of his love. And it could even lead to serious consequences for the hearer if he believes that falsehood because he'll be under the impression that God loves him with all his spiritual warts, leprosy, uncleaness, etc. And since God loves me just as I am, then what incentive would the hearer have to want to change what he is and become something new instead? The love universalists actually do much harm to the gospel and to the hearer thereof.

 

[Magenta]

I see, so then maybe they cannot be reasoned with then because that doesn't make sense how one can think that way if the natural was able to accept the spiritual then the scriptures would say so but it doesn't and doesn't matter if it is only mentioned once the fact it says so even once should be taken as truth.

Yes... we have dozens of Scriptures to counter their NONE but, you are right, they cannot be reasoned
with. But that does not mean their nonsense should not be countered with the truth from Scripture.
Even knowing they are entrenched in their error and unlikely to change and they love to misrepresent...
it gets very distasteful and sometimes distressing to be at odds with people you thought were friends.
They twist what is said and think they have done nothing to offend and refuse to be held accountable.
Their constant dishonesty is toxic.

 

[Rufus]

Then how did Jesus pay the price? He never went to the lake of fire.

In a real sense, He did! He suffered a death worse than physical torment; for the worst torment or anguish anyone can suffer is mentally and psychologically, according to mental health experts. He was in extreme torment on the Cross because he no longer experienced communion, fellowship and oneness with this Father (Mk 15:34). He became separated from his Father when He bore the sins of the elect in his body. Recall how on the Day of Atonement, the scapegoat had laid on him the sins of the people by the High Priest and then was led outside the camp to the wilderness?

 

[Rufus]

To clarify, even though you've previously explained this to varying degrees.

Circumcision of the heart precedes Faith, correct?

Assuming yes:

• Do you see any typology in Abraham which was God approaching and speaking to him > Abraham has Faith > Abraham circumcised?
• In the NC, Paul says to Christians: NKJ Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
  • Clearly per this translation this took place "in Him-Christ" & "by Christ" so you're saying unbelievers were put into Christ so they could be circumcised in heart so they could believe in Christ?

Since when did you come to believe in and accept typology? I recall your contempt for it months ago when I did my series of posts on the Exodus, which has more than a few types in it! As I recall you complained about typology because too much liberty can be taken in formulating it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Were they saved when Paul arrived?

they knew the gospel of John ... you tell me if they were saved ...
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God does work in mysterious ways! It took me a long time, listening to sermon after sermon before becoming a believer. Sometimes it just takes hearing the right message at the right time. God has His own way of drawing those He loves!

1 Cor 3 tells us some plant ... some water ... God gives increase. The planting is the first time a person hears the truth of Scripture ... the watering is the hearing again (and again and again and etc. etc.). God determines when He will give increase to what has been planted / watered. God's timing is always perfect. And the planting and watering is continuous over the lifetime of the believer ... not just at the time the person hears and believes the gospel.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think the word giving us problems is believe. I can say from thinking about the word believe that you can coerce someone to say they believe under threat or duress ect ect. However to actually believe that decision has to come from deep inside an individual. I think the belief is man's responsibility. What do you think man's responsibility is in the salvation process.

As in "deep inside" the heart of "an individual" (Rom 10:10)? Perhaps this is the reason why God gives his New Covenant people a new heart -- so that they can believe? How can any person believe when the thoughts and intentions of all the unsaved are evil continually (Gen 6:5) and when the hearts of men are full of evil and madness all their lives (Eccl 9:3)?

Matthew 19:25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
.

 

[cv5]

they knew the gospel of John ... you tell me if they were saved ...
.

@Cameron143 says no they were not.
@Rufus thinks so too, as he says that ONLY "Christianized" Jews are actually saved.

Pretty outrageous, but entirely predictable......

[Mat 23:13 KJV]
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[Mat 23:14 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

[Mat 23:15 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[Mat 23:23 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[Mat 23:25 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

[Mat 23:27 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

[Mat 23:29 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

[Luk 11:44 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].

 

[Cameron143]

they knew the gospel of John ... you tell me if they were saved ...
.

So I ask you a question to better understand your position and you want me to answer the question. How does that help me understand your position? Besides, I already answered the question previously.

 

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143 says no they were not.
@Rufus thinks so too, as he says that ONLY "Christianized" Jews are actually saved.

Pretty outrageous, but entirely predictable......

[Mat 23:13 KJV]
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[Mat 23:14 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

[Mat 23:15 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[Mat 23:23 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[Mat 23:25 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

[Mat 23:27 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

[Mat 23:29 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

[Luk 11:44 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].

Wrong as usual. I believe they were saved.

 

[studier]

Since when did you come to believe in and accept typology? I recall your contempt for it months ago when I did my series of posts on the Exodus, which has more than a few types in it! As I recall you complained about typology because too much liberty can be taken in formulating it.

I've always accepted Biblically accurate typology.

 

[Magenta]

I've always accepted Biblically accurate typology.

Accurate according to you, who distorts word meanings, and rewrites verses, to suit your erroneous presups.

 

[cv5]

Wrong as usual. I believe they were saved.

Not in the doctrinally accurate Biblical sense.

 

[Rufus]

That sounds like something you need to discuss with God!

HIH clearly believes she has a mortal lock on what is fair and just. She is so full of herself, she likely believes that God modifies his thoughts and ways to align with hers.

 

[Rufus]

My Uncle Ron was raised as a young boy until about the age of 18 in the Catholic Church. He had a firm belief that God was real and existed and he believed this. On his 18th birthday he received via the mail his Draft Card to serve a one year term in Vietnam.

So when the dates arrived he loaded the bus and became enlisted in the USA Army. As a short and smaller young man they began training him crawling through culverts pretending to be underground tunnels. He was training and became a Tunnel Rat. So he finally arrived in Nam and began his duty. The things he saw and had to do in those tunnels messed with him severely. He would be sent into a tunnel and maybe it would take him a few days even sometimes a week or more to navigate them. When he would get to the end and it was classified as secured he would get a 2 week leave of absense before being sent into a newly discovered tunnel. And during those 2 weeks of leave the Army smuggled in a variety of illegal drugs and he was blitzed for about 10 days and then spend a few days clearing his mind to do his duties.

One year passed and he reenlisted. Another year passed and he reenlisted. He was so mentally messed up and strung out on drugs he kept enlisting because he was afraid to go back to the States.

Finally the war ended and he was forced to go back home. Before he left he was dating my Aunt and when he returned they married. He began going to my Grandfather's Church he Pastored and for the next 30 years sat and heard the Gospel preached message after message.

My Grandfather passed away and my Dad took over. Eventually my Dad passed away and I took over. Uncle Ron just sat Service after Service, Sermon after Sermon.

One day he needed to go to the VA Hospital and my Aunt asked me to go with him. He never was a talker and would have said nothing the entire way if he had a choice.

But as we were traveling I asked about never seeing him coming to the altar for prayer. I asked him if he believed in God. He basically said he didn't know any more. Here's a man who at one time did believe in God and now he didn't know.

A few Sunday Services passed by and Sunday evening Church is typically when I would preach the heavy messages. I felt God urge me to call him to come up for prayer. He came up and placed my hands on both of his shoulders and began praying. Suddenly tears were running down his cheeks. He was praying. Then he began to cry and I just held him.

He heard the Gospel a 1,000 times preached in a variety of different ways. But he never was awakened. It was when the love from a professing Believer in God was shown and bestowed towards him that he his hearing connected to his emotions.

Had I believed that God predetermined and predestined who spends eternity here or there I would have never made the effort I felt God urge me to do. He would have died and been eternally lost forever.

Why not!? Just because you felt deprived on knowing the secret things of God, you would nonchalantly disobey His revealed will?

For your info, I've heard similar stories told by Reformed believers. They remained faithful to God's revealed will and never gave a second thought as to whether a person was one of God's elect or not. In fact, they preached and taught with even more passion and zeal because they know that at the end of the day it's God who gives the increase! Reformed folks don't rely on their own strength, or creative gospel strategies. They just faithfully do what they were called to do and leave the rest up to God.

 

[Rufus]

Don't tell @Kroogz.

I won't! If he doesn't believe the Word of God, he won't believe me.

 

[Rufus]

I've always accepted Biblically accurate typology [except when it's inconvenient for me].

FTFY!

 

[studier]

I've always accepted Biblically accurate typology [which @Rufus rarely if ever provides].

FTFY.

 

[cv5]

I've always accepted Biblically accurate typology [which @Rufus rarely if ever provides].

FTFY.

If you are disappointed in their typology.......just wait until you hear of their views on eschatology.
Go ahead........ask @Rufus ask @Cameron143 and see what you get.

And ask @Magenta on her views of annihilationism while you are at it.