Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Hey Marge,

I totally Agree and I will add that, it is his choice to remain a slave to sin even after hearing the Gospel.
God does not force us to become children of His. He has no grudge about us rejecting Him.

We are not forced but we are enabled to choose, and before that it is not possible. Many Scripture
verses attest to this, though there are many here who disagree. They often contradict and outright
deny what the Bible says, and even rewrite verses to suit their vain self-exalting theology. Also,
those given to Jesus by God will come to Him. He draws us with lovingkindness to engender repentance.

1 Corinthians 15 verse 58 ~ Be steadfast and immovable. Always excel in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

 

[cv5]

We were spiritually dead, not brain dead.
You want to make the Gospel something so "out of this world" that it is impossible for any brain to comprehend. God has made it easy. He knows what we are up against.

Rahab was not brain dead that's for sure. Neither was the king of Jericho. But the one made RIGHT CHOICES and the other did not.

Question to the super-determinists:
Does the memory of the Lord drying up the Red Sea resound and reverberated to this present day? Well, it does. This was the beginning of Rahab's believing back then. And likewise it can be to ANYONE today. Anyone without exception.

Bottom line.....the whole world knows the fame of the God of Israel back then and of Jesus at His advent. The only matter that remains is what every man CHOOSES to do with these startling revelations.

[Jos 2:8-10 KJV]
8 And before they were laid down, she came up unto them upon the roof;
9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that [were] on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

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And what is this? "The Egyptians shall know"? Well I think that the Egyptians made the same mistake as the king of Jericho....BAD CHOICES.

[Exo 7:5 KJV] 5 And the Egyptians shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

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[Kroogz]

You claim to be a brother in Christ. I was correcting you for bearing false witness to your neighbor. Or was I wrong in assuming you have already saved?

Can you show me where you shared the Gospel?

You have put me on the "questionable list." I should have it in every post you send to me right? Being the Great missionary of the reformed doctrine that you are.

 

[NightTwister]

I agree.

There you go again bearing false witness against me. Partially quoting to change the context of my comment is lying. Since you can't be honest there's no point in further discussion with you.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yet having the same soul he was born with.
God creates a new man by installing a new app into the soul called "the human spirit."

Suddenly?

That same soul man was born with?
Can now pick up Wi-Fi.

He then became a new creation.

my point was that if, as rogerg claims, "God does it all", then why do we see the abhorrent treatment by believers toward brothers and sisters in Christ ?

Ephesians 4:30-32 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
.

 

[rogerg]

The Question is what are we saved from? We are going to be saved from entering hell, from eternal damnation. This salvation is a process. it is not a one time stop thing.

Depends upon how you mean "saved" - it is used two different ways in scripture. We are saved once during this life by God, and if we have experienced that salvation, then we will be literally saved (delivered) from God's wrath on the day of His wrath. However, I don't think that is the way @Kroogz meant it, which is the clarification I was asking for, and what I was replying to.
Becoming saved is a onetime thing, but being delivered from God's wrath (also referred to as being saved - as in delivered) occurs only as a result of having become saved in the first instance; the second "saved" is not something that occurs without the first having happened.

So when we accept Christ we are JUSTIFIED (Romans 8:1). We are called children of the Most High. (John 12:1). Because we are justified and the death penalty is lifted, we are called to live SANCTIFIED lives (Roman 12 :1-2). Our salvation is completed when we are GLORIFIED. When our Lord comes and takes us Home.

When we are saved by God we are justified by God. Nothing that we may do can save or justify us. We accept Christ BECAUSE we have been saved - and by that, given a new spirit, and a renewed mind - but it is the byproduct of salvation, not its cause. That is why Jesus alone bears the title of Savior, and we do not. Our justification is by God, not us.

[Rom 3:30 KJV] 30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

[1Co 1:30 KJV] 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Yes they that believe shall be saved

Indeed. Those who truly have been saved, also shall be saved, but it is not because of their belief in either of those cases that they are saved.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

"work" is "meritorious."

Romans 4 clearly states that faith is not works.
.

 

[rogerg]

Yes.

Believe, that moment is salvation.

It is not salvation and at some point in the future we will believe.

But belief is in the present tense and saved in the future tense in the verse you quoted, not the present tense.
For a more detailed explanation, see my 8946 post above.

 

[Kroogz]

my point was that if, as rogerg claims, "God does it all", then why do we see the abhorrent treatment by believers toward brothers and sisters in Christ ?

The verse that the calvies use to teach unbelievers that they cannot believe the Gospel is very appropriate in this context.......
1 Cor 2:14
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..

 

[reneweddaybyday]

my point was that if, as rogerg claims, "God does it all", then why do we see the abhorrent treatment by believers toward brothers and sisters in Christ ?

The verse that the calvies use to teach unbelievers that they cannot believe the Gospel is very appropriate in this context.......
1 Cor 2:14
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..

pickin' up what you're layin' down ...

and the misinterpretation concerning 1 Cor 2:14 has been explained many times ... falls on deaf ears ...

.

 

[Kroogz]

But belief is in the present tense

Belief is in the AORIST tense.

pisteuson pisteuson G4100 vm Aor Act 2 Sg BELIEVE believe-you !


The MOMENT one believes(Aorist/ ACTIVE[you believe]) that one is saved.

 

[Cameron143]

Thank you for clearing that up.

And your non response to my other points.......Point to the FACT that I have your beliefs WIRED. I ain't misrepresenting you, I see your beliefs clearly and it makes you uncomfortable.

You're supposed to be able to fool us all!

See. More misrepresentation. I've never tried to fool anyone, nor does my understanding of scripture make me uncomfortable.

 

[Jordon]

As I understand it, that when re read the greatest passage of all in my opinion, that who ever believes in the son shall have everlasting life and never perish, we should most certainly also read that who ever has been given faith and handed over to the son shall never perish,

But most all, we should fully appreciates that when this happens it's most certainly a promise, and complete assurance, and we shouldn't doubt it.

We could believe we have to wait untill we receive a glorified body for complete proof of our inheritance, but I have to ask have we really believed if we think this

 

[Kroogz]

See. More misrepresentation. I've never tried to fool anyone, nor does my understanding of scripture make me uncomfortable.

Cameron143 said:
Faith is the product of the work of the Spirit employing the word of God. One is saved through faith. We believe as a result of the work of God in us.

The Spirit will convict the WORLD.....ALL people. Bible.


@Cameron143 ......Faith is the product of being saved/regenerated.

@Cameron143 ....One is saved and THEN one has faith.

@Cameron143 .....You believe as a result of being saved/regenerated.

 

[rogerg]

Belief is in the AORIST tense.

pisteuson pisteuson G4100 vm Aor Act 2 Sg BELIEVE believe-you !


The MOMENT one believes(Aorist/ ACTIVE[you believe]) that one is saved.

I would state it in the reverse: as a result of being saved, they came to believe in Christ as Savior. Anyway, I don't think "saved", as you perceive it, is used in that way in that verse, because it is future - a different tense than believe. IOW, according to that verse, "believe" occurs at a different point in time than "saved" does.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But belief is in the present tense and saved in the future tense in the verse you quoted, not the present tense.

saved is in the future tense because the guy hadn't believed yet ... he had only asked "what must I do to be saved".
.
Acts 16:30-34 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

After they preached the Word of the Lord to him and his household, then he and his household believed.
.

 

[rogerg]

As I understand it, that when re read the greatest passage of all in my opinion, that who ever believes in the son shall have everlasting life and never perish, we should most certainly also read that who ever has been given faith and handed over to the son shall never perish,

To whom is your post intended, and which specific verse(s) do you have in mind?

 

[Kroogz]

I would state it in the reverse: as a result of being saved, they come to believe in Christ as Savior.

The Greek disagrees with you @rogerg. It's just the opposite of what you state.

In John 3:16 we have a present tense of "believes." Why? because it is a clause. A statement of truth. WHOEVER presently reads John 3:16 the clause/statement of "whosoever believes" remains true. It was true a thousand years ago and will be true for whosoever 2000 years from now.

Acts 16:31 is a different cat. That is a command to a specific individual........Hence the Aorist tense and Active voice.

The moment one believes, one is saved. And John 3:16 remains true for ANYONE who reads it.

 

[Genez]

Where is the phrase...choose to believe God...in the Bible?

Describing the action is what I did....

​

Acts 16:30-31​

​

He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”​

​

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

When told to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?
What do you think they did?

 

[Genez]

"believe" is, but "shall be saved" is future. Why future?
According to you, isn't someone saved WHEN they believe?

Hey! Chef Roger?

They had not yet believed.

That is why they were told...
"Shall be saved."
( saved when they do!)


......