Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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That's not what the text says. If the passage read: "For those whom God knew in eternity, he also predestined...", this would not change the sense of the passage whatsoever. The reason Paul used the prefix "pro" before "knew" is to make the point that God [fore]knew people BEFORE Time began. This passage has zero to do with God's prescience and everything to do with with his personal covenant of love, affection, intimacy with those whom He chose in eternity to save.

Are you going to suggest that Jesus will not possess the attribute of omniscience when on the last day he tells unbelievers that he never knew them (Mat 7:23)?

Honestly I don't even know what to say to any of that. It's like you don't hear a word I say. I didn't even speak of when God made the decisions, I accepted people understood it was before time hence the "fore" knowledge.

My point was foreknowledge didn't deal with what God knew but who He knew.

You said quote: "This passage has zero to do with God's prescience and everything to do with with his personal covenant of love,"

This is exactly what I said. Foreknowledge has to do with the people and only with the people He sees Himself within a relationship.

Strewth. :rolleyes: :LOL:
 
I'm going to explain this to you in Jesus' terms so maybe it's easier to see:

"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad —in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—" -- Romans 9:11 (ESV)
Already been debunked and de-calvinized. Dozens of times.
 
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As I posted a bit ago, whether it's metaphor or not, or metaphor in part, it seems is open to a lot of interpretation. I also posted re: the concept of 2 deaths in Gen2:17.

The issue for me as I've said or alluded to, is that we have several systems of interpretation and nearly as many versions of what death means in Gen2:17. Then we go along with a made-up phrase "spiritual death" used by at least several systems but each of them ultimately inserts their own definition for "spiritual". If I carry this into verses like Eph2:1-5 or any other Scriptures like this, each system is thinking something different when they read the word "dead".

These 2 make more sense and I had a guy tell me how he loves and fully supports this stuff.

Am I understanding you correctly that you support what that link sent me to as the work of God?

Sorry, I'm a little confused and surprised it doesn't seem to fit together with your studious presentation.
 
BillyBob ... all agree that salvation is wholly by grace through faith ... no need to resurrect an issue which has been dealt with ad nauseum for close to 400 pages ... moving on ...
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If what you say is true then why do I continue to see the term volitional used?
Does this not relate to the use of one's will?
I also see statements such as : Could it be that rather than "spiritually dead" what occurred in Adam was more in line with "spiritually disabled" ... or "spiritually incapacitated" ... "spiritual paralysis"
Such statements give man credit for an ability that he is no longer capable of, leading to the idea that he does have something to offer in the way of salvation.
 
BillyBob ... all agree that salvation is wholly by grace through faith ... no need to resurrect an issue which has been dealt with ad nauseum for close to 400 pages ... moving on ...
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They do like to keep the merry-go-round going for some reason. :unsure:
 
It was a rhetorical question.
Asked, so the Lord could introduce (to all the angels watching what was going on) the new name that God had designated for Jacob.
Or...because the last time Jacob was asked the question, he lied.
 
I am more closely aligned with this understanding.

I should clarify that Thieme is mainly Trichotomous = Body, Soul, Spirit - and his view of the dead human spirit is really not Classic Dichotomy = Body, Soul/Spirit. He's known for a militaristic precision and his system is mostly unique. Free Grace Dispensationalism is close but not the same.

Over time I came to have an issue with the dead human spirit concept and I'm not even sure how much it matters. When I searched and studied all the spirit, soul, heart, mind, words it was very hard much of the time to strictly separate them. As I understand, this is part of the what makes for the soul/spirit viewpoint.

Rather than "Death of the Human Spirit — Fallen man is Dichotomous = body and soul", I see it as body and soul + spirit without the presence of the Holy Spirit (as I explained at Post 7627). Functionally, it is closely aligned with dichotomous, but I think if we remove spirit altogether, do we then contradict verses in Scripture which speak of the spirit of man? Could it be that rather than "spiritually dead" what occurred in Adam was more in line with "spiritually disabled" ... or "spiritually incapacitated" ... "spiritual paralysis" ... we see people who have physical disabilities ... could Adam and Eve's sin result spiritual paralysis ... the part is there, just functioning so far below what God initially created due to God having removed His Spirit?

The heart of man is what God desires ... the whole heart. Could it be that when Adam sinned and God removed His presence from the heart of Adam what remained was the work of the law being written in [the] heart (Rom 2:15) without the presence of the Holy Spirit to direct and guide the actions?

Under New Covenant, God creates a new heart within upon which is not written the work of the law ... God writes His law upon our hearts and puts His law in our minds (Heb 8:10) ... the mind of Christ which is also part of the new birth (1 Cor 2:16) is designed to hold all God gives.
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I looked at that linked post and your following closing made me smile:

"... just a few thoughts on the matter ..."​
Just a few!?
You'd have to show me how you get to the concept of Adam originally having the Holy Spirit. I'm not requesting you do this work, BTW. I'm not sure how much I'll be giving all of this more attention. Reading all the varied views of so many different systems leaves me with my face in my hands wondering why.

Back to my original issue of terminology, Thieme IMO is a good example of using phrases like "spiritual death". Unless it's defined who would know he sees it as essentially meaning no human spirit until regeneration? So, any time we read Scripture that may seem to speak of fallen man having a spirit, we'd have to know Thieme may be seeing something differently. And since the fall and the meaning of death are applicable all the way through the resolutions, it's not a small matter IMO if we want to understand how this all works down to the details.

In closing this, in case anyone else reads it, I will say that looking at all of this again and including Augustine and Calvin in all the modeling, is just more and more reason for me to have strong disagreements with the Reformed system at nearly every turn.
 
Rom 8:29 has NOTHING to do with God's prescience. If it does, then you have a huge theological problem with Mat 7:23 because in order for you to be consistent with your prescience nonsense, you'd have to say that at the Parousia Jesus won't be omniscient since He never FOREKNEW the sins of the sinners he will condemn.

I know you think you know what you are talking about because of the indoctrination you welcomed into your life.

But as far as those of us who rightly handle the Word of God?
You were making no sense.

Enjoy your sect of likeminded souls.
That aspect... God has allotted to you under the sun.
 
Am I understanding you correctly that you support what that link sent me to as the work of God?

Sorry, I'm a little confused and surprised it doesn't seem to fit together with your studious presentation.

No and absolutely No. If I watch 2 seconds of that I'm about to pass out.

My point was that stuff is about as easy to understand as some of the common terminology used in these threads that has many different definitions in the mind of different speakers/writers. I posted 3 systems that all think of death differently from one verse. I won't begin to tell you how many systems I looked at modeling the differences between them. We might as well all be speaking gibberish.
 
Am I understanding you correctly that you support what that link sent me to as the work of God?

Sorry, I'm a little confused and surprised it doesn't seem to fit together with your studious presentation.

No and absolutely No. If I watch 2 seconds of that I'm about to pass out.

My point was that stuff is about as easy to understand as some of the common terminology used in these threads that has many different definitions in the mind of different speakers/writers. I posted 3 systems that all think of death differently from one verse. I won't begin to tell you how many systems I looked at modeling the differences between them. We might as well all be speaking gibberish.
 
Nice of you fill in the needed details so we can see where you are coming from.
My question was to a particular poster who didn't explain the scripture he gave, so I was asking questions to see if he understood the passage.
 
If what you say is true then why do I continue to see the term volitional used?
Does this not relate to the use of one's will?
Yes, volition does relate to the will.




BillyBob said:
I also see statements such as : Could it be that rather than "spiritually dead" what occurred in Adam was more in line with "spiritually disabled" ... or "spiritually incapacitated" ... "spiritual paralysis"
Yes, the discussion has move to what occurred at the time Adam sinned.




BillyBob said:
Such statements give man credit for an ability that he is no longer capable of, leading to the idea that he does have something to offer in the way of salvation.
No ... we all agree God makes the first move in reaching out to mankind ... He makes Himself known through creation ... He has given us the Scriptures so we may know Him ... He inspires faithful men and women to speak the truth of His Word ... at that point the natural man can either believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
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