Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8
 
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studier said:
Forgiven.

Of course, your questions are on target, but what does "spiritually dead" mean and include or not include?

Reading these threads, does the phrase mean something different to different traditions?

Why does someone from a certain tradition think they're telling others some great alternate tradition punishing truth by proof-texting and telling us Paul says you were dead in trespasses and sins?

The issue for me comes about in reading all the input in these posts.

We have not only the corpse complete inability being demanded from a dichotomy theology saying the Spirit needs to make alive our corpse soul/spirit before we can believe.​
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We have another dichotomy system with a dead or non-functional spirit (not soul) saying the Spirit essentially takes the place of the dead or non-functional human spirit so we can believe (which is not far from the dichotomy of the corpse soul/spirit)​
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Then we have trichotomy with the human spirit still intact and functional essentially saying we have all we need to believe the grace provisioned content God provides and draws us to.​

We have all three of these different views talking about being '"spiritually dead".

So, is the human spirit alive or dead? What happened at the fall?

I think it was @Pilgrimshope who listed Scriptures that very much seem to speak of the existence of a functional(?) human spirit.

If it's alive or functional in any way, then should we be saying we're spiritually dead which everybody seems to be using?

If "spiritually dead" means dead but not physically dead, then what is dead or what does Paul mean we were dead?

There is another seemingly more Biblically accurate phrasing we use often to parallel or explain the "spiritually dead" construct. When Paul speaks of being dead in trespasses and sins, what is he drawing on and what does he mean (your question back to you)?

I'm not picking on you BTW, just answering questions with more questions and open posting for anyone who cares to read?

We are all way more traditionalized than any of us sufficiently understand. We're using made up phrases and made-up words which are all open to opinion and abuse and we're arguing about words that are not even in the Bible. Few are just explaining the Text.
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Maybe we should start a new thread and go exploring? :unsure:
 
sawdust said:
Maybe we should start a new thread and go exploring? :unsure:
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Maybe. Or maybe we just get this one further on track. There are some good minds here shutting down a lot of the Reformed nonsense. And ultimately what I'm dealing with is concerning this pejorative "FW" moniker.

While waiting for others to wake up physically or digitally, I've been working on some of these terminology issues - these theological constructs made by men that are not actually in Scripture but systematic interpretations of Scripture. And before anyone says, what about the "Trinity", I don't think there's much disagreement about the meaning of the word.

However, once we get into constructs like "spiritual death" and "total depravity" and words like "repent" we're dealing with interpretation and traditions and arguing about the meaning of manmade phrases and religious words that are not in the Text.

Furthermore, we're dealing with a lot of Philosophy that was brought into Theology ages ago and some of this has affected what man even is and how God created him and what the fall did to him.

It's all a mess and the one thing about being out of the isolating pews is that forums lie this show how much of a chaotic mess christendom and systematic theology is.

The Text/Word and the Spirit is the purity, and we have both. We need to jettison all the inserted terminology and speak God's language if we want to think like Him and thereby behave as His sons.
 
Aligned with Acts 2:24 and Rev 1:18, Ephesians 2:1 appears to be speaking toward mortality, which explains the reason tha:1. while Jesus was nekrous (Rev1:18) as you were in your trespasses (Eph2:1) it was impossible that death (thanatou) could hold Him. He is the only immortal.
 
Rufus said:
Correct! Foreknowledge is based on divine prerogative. This is why Rom 8:29 doesn't say what FWers try to make it say . And it's why Act 2:23 does say what it does -- that God's plan/purpose precedes his foreknowledge.
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"your volition is key to the angelic conflict in its tactical phase"

R. B. Thieme Jr.

".... volition...."
 
Mem said:
Aligned with Acts 2:24 and Rev 1:18, Ephesians 2:1 appears to be speaking toward mortality, which explains the reason tha:1. while Jesus was nekrous (Rev1:18) as you were in your trespasses (Eph2:1) it was impossible that death (thanatou) could hold Him. He is the only immortal.
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Although He subjected Himself to death for our sake. He is the only One Who Is not subject to it, the only One capable of overcoming it. So, it is no wonder that we must be born from above, in Christ, He "carries" us.
 
Pilgrimshope said:
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
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Yes our God is great! His plan will not fail and all things will come to pass in time according to the schedule that He set in place. Amazing, isn't it?
It's also amazing that man is so corrupt as to think that he must assist God in any way.
 
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Mem said:
Aligned with Acts 2:24 and Rev 1:18, Ephesians 2:1 appears to be speaking toward mortality, which explains the reason tha:1. while Jesus was nekrous (Rev1:18) as you were in your trespasses (Eph2:1) it was impossible that death (thanatou) could hold Him. He is the only immortal.
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So, I've been asking what "spiritual death" means and includes and doesn't include. Eph2:1 is one of the verses that we use for this "spiritual death" construct, which means different things to different systematic traditions that we argue about.

Paul has a vast and deep eschatological soteriology that goes far beyond just the "salvation" of mankind. When he speaks of "dead in trespasses and sins" through both words "dead & trespasses (violations)" he's intentionally pointing us somewhere which is key to his view of the cosmic scope of salvation.

He's also in the next few verses explaining what he means by "dead" and by Eph2:5 he shows us by use of an "inclusio" - a literary device - in this case a repetition of the phrase "dead in trespasses-violations" - that Eph2:1-5 needs to be paid attention to as a unit that teaches us something about this phrase.

So, the point is, what do we learn from Eph2:1-5 about Paul's meaning of "dead in violations"? And why does he then go into salvation, life, new creation in Christ and what is the depth of his eschatological thinking about all of this?
 
BillyBob said:
Yes our God is great! His plan will not fail and all things will come to pass in time according to the schedule that He set in place. Amazing, isn't it?
It's also amazing that man is so corrupt as to think that he must assist God in any way.
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If you'd jettison the pejorative shots at Christians who read Scripture differently than you, you'd be a lot more interesting to read.

And FWIW and to be clear, I'm speaking to myself and to all of us just as much as I'm speaking to you. The bad habits and behavior around here are out of control, very captivating, and a horrible witness.

Your first 2 statements are good stuff I'd be surprised if any Christian would disagree with them. So, thanks for saying that part.
 
studier said:
Twilight Zone indeed!

One good thing about sitting in the pews of our "choice" is that we don't partake in this confused mess which is theology and christendom even though we may be learning error constantly if we're even learning anything.

Then we come to these threads and essentially tell each other, 'Well my pastor says'. which is straight out of 1Cor3 instruction against fleshly infancy.

Thanks for bringing in the "separated from God" concept. I wonder if this is all that the made up and abused "spiritually phrase dead" means?
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I honestly don’t know what they even mean by the term . I do know that I’ve never in my life read anything in the Bible about man being spiritually dead from birth .

the Bible I have read shows god interacting with mankind through his word from the very conception of this world all the way through . Then at times they provoke his wrath and he turns away from them after thier much rebellion and then he turns again to them and gives mercy and reaches out again calls then to him saves the ones who listen …


i get your point about not being able to learn anything or learning confusion Faith is really is about simplicity and some of those pondering ideas wreck the whole effective power of it to change our minds
 
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studier said:
So, I've been asking what "spiritual death" means and includes and doesn't include. Eph2:1 is one of the verses that we use for this "spiritual death" construct, which means different things to different systematic traditions that we argue about.

Paul has a vast and deep eschatological soteriology that goes far beyond just the "salvation" of mankind. When he speaks of "dead in trespasses and sins" through both words "dead & trespasses (violations)" he's intentionally pointing us somewhere which is key to his view of the cosmic scope of salvation.

He's also in the next few verses explaining what he means by "dead" and by Eph2:5 he shows us by use of an "inclusio" - a literary device - in this case a repetition of the phrase "dead in trespasses-violations" - that Eph2:1-5 needs to be paid attention to as a unit that teaches us something about this phrase.

So, the point is, what do we learn from Eph2:1-5 about Paul's meaning of "dead in violations"? And why does he then go into salvation, life, new creation in Christ and what is the depth of his eschatological thinking about all of this?
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This judgment in the ot
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

means that once a person commits sin they are now sentenced death at judgement day . It’s like they are now on death row sinners are all condemned . gods word has condemned them to death for sin in the ot repeatedly but they are like inmates on death row they are sirely going to die but they haven’t been pit to death yet …..

“For the wages of sin is death;( if a man sins his earned wage is death )

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when all had been deemed sinful and condemned to death for thier sins ….when man was finally lost and doomed God made an intercession and paid that debt to death for thier sins for them

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So before we were executed he came to save us from the punishment of death impending upon us all adults that are aware of good and evil are all doomed without the gospel they all need to be “ saved “ before they die in sin without atonement

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭

he’s came to save us before we die on sin because then we have no atonement for our spirit

awe aren’t dead we are condemned to die like when a murderer gets sentenced to death and out on death row

But Jesus has offered us a pardon paid for by his blood and offered by his word
 
studier said:
Where does Scripture state this "spiritually dead"?

What does "spiritually dead" mean?
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Interesting, I did a bit of research enough the exact term "spiritually dead" does not occur in scripture.
I think it is accurate to say that the Greek term for dead needs to be understood in context of the passage.

From Bill Mounce,
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
Gloss:
dead (can be used physically or fig., of both persons and things); (n.) dead person, corpse

Definition:
dead, without life, Mt. 11:5; 22:31; met. νεκρός τινι, dead to a thing, no longer devoted to, or under the influence of a thing, Rom. 6:11; dead in respect of fruitlessness, Jas. 2:17, 20, 26; morally or spiritually dead, Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:14; dead in alienation from God, Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13; subject to death, mortal, Rom. 8:10; causing death and misery, fatal, having a destructive power, Heb. 6:1; 9:14

Link

If we agree it means alienation from God in some verses, then I think the question becomes what is the impact.
I think it is important to make clear that death is about separation and not functionality as people so with the Lazuras example.
The impact is the capacity to sin.
Thoughts?
 
Pilgrimshope said:
I honestly don’t know what they even mean by the term . I do know that I’ve never in my life read anything in the Bible about man being spiritually dead from birth .

the Bible I have read shows god interacting with mankind through his word from the very conception of this world all the way through . Then at times they provoke his wrath and he turns away from them after thier much rebellion and then he turns again to them and gives mercy and reaches out again calls then to him saves the ones who listen …


i get your point about not being able to learn anything or learning confusion Faith is really is about simplicity and some of those pondering ideas wreck the whole effective power of it to change our minds
Click to expand...

I really don't know if any of us have a deep enough appreciation for Scripture like Jer17:5...

There is so much hope, trust, persuasion by men in other men that has been passed down to us in translations and interpretations and differing systematic doctrines that we have been and are persuaded by and use daily that the corporate maturity and same-thinking that Paul speaks of seems very far off.

The only thing that makes sense to me in this respect is that He knows those who are His, at every level, no matter where they are in every generation, and just like the Remnant, He has them in place and in reserve. This is just a very simple overview of what I mean by and include in it.
 
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