Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

If you showed me him using it against the church I must have missed it because I sure never saw that in the scripture here is what revelations says Revelation 19:15. This verse states that a sharp sword comes out of Jesus' mouth, with which he will strike down the nations and rule them with an iron rod

Now you can believe what it says or not but while your scripture you say it says something when it doesn't mine clearly states what it says as well as the other verxses I posted clear as day we are to encourage build up and bring each other to good works but you disregard this and for whatever reason refuse to accept it as God's word.
Not to mention let us say your right and that Christ is to bering a sword against the church that is Christ not us the bible and Jesus himself says how we are to treat one another do you disregard the words of Jesus as well?

Rev.2:16

You assume I disregard the verses you quoted because I want you to see that it's not all rainbows and unicorns which is how you want to make it. Christ is equally "lover and warrior". If you want to be like Him you need to understand that.

 

[studier]

Your address to Cameron's points and your mention of the ambiguity in the English ear generate a thought of the doubleminded man which I've gathered to be a man who doubts according to James 1:5-8. And as I considered what might be the two parts involved in a 'doublemind,' I was able to define that more precisely, according to that context, as that 'man that asks in faith but with (rather than not) doubting' is double-minded. Do you think it would be unreasonable then, if that is indeed the true definition of the double-minded, to conclude that the two parts of a double-mind is thinking with one part natural and one part spiritual?

That's an interesting thought, though I don't know if I'd consider it as the natural-soulish man because that seems to be the man without the Spirit. I'd probably go to the fleshly man because Paul compares the "babes (infants-nepios)" in Christ to the fleshly, so if anything, I'd think James is probably thinking the maturing are prone to being double-minded.

I'd have to look again at how natural-soulish is used throughout the Text to confirm.

 

[studier]

Your address to Cameron's points and your mention of the ambiguity in the English ear generate a thought of the doubleminded man which I've gathered to be a man who doubts according to James 1:5-8. And as I considered what might be the two parts involved in a 'doublemind,' I was able to define that more precisely, according to that context, as that 'man that asks in faith but with (rather than not) doubting' is double-minded. Do you think it would be unreasonable then, if that is indeed the true definition of the double-minded, to conclude that the two parts of a double-mind is thinking with one part natural and one part spiritual?

Just looking at this quickly. Here are the verses that speak of the "psuchikos" person:

(1 Cor. 2:14 ESV) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.​

​

(1 Cor. 15:44 ESV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.​

​

(1 Cor. 15:46 ESV) But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.​

​

(Jas. 3:15 ESV) This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.​

​

(Jude 1:19 ESV) It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.​

I'm not using ESV for any specific reason. I just had my system set to copy from it.

One of my issues with translators is how they are inconsistent in translating words when it's easy to use a word consistently.

Since James3:15 is using this word to speak of something the believer can be caught up in, I suppose it's not much different than being caught up in things of the flesh. And, since flesh is also descriptive of the unbeliever, then the 2 words do have a commonality.

So, I think your thoughts are more interesting.

And then, looking more closely at James1:8 "double-minded" is "di-psuchos" which is actually "double/two-souled" and a form of "psuchikos" (translated "natural"), so "double/two-souled can also be "double/two-natured".

Your thoughts seem to play-out and be confirmed.

So, the believer is both warned of being fleshly and double/two/bi-natured in thought and behavior. And both Paul and James speak of maturity (aka translated as perfection/completion at times - NET James 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. - being the way out of this condition.

Good thoughts, Mem!

 

[HeIsHere]

Imagine raising our children while believing that principle

I cannot even imagine.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's why we do not tolerate evil and Christians can, quite often, be the worst peddlers of evil.

Defenders and supporters sadly.
What a time we live in.

 

[HeIsHere]

Just looking at this quickly. Here are the verses that speak of the "psuchikos" person:

(1 Cor. 2:14 ESV) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.​

​

(1 Cor. 15:44 ESV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.​

​

(1 Cor. 15:46 ESV) But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.​

​

(Jas. 3:15 ESV) This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.​

​

(Jude 1:19 ESV) It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.​

I'm not using ESV for any specific reason. I just had my system set to copy from it.

One of my issues with translators is how they are inconsistent in translating words when it's easy to use a word consistently.

Since James3:15 is using this word to speak of something the believer can be caught up in, I suppose it's not much different than being caught up in things of the flesh. And, since flesh is also descriptive of the unbeliever, then the 2 words do have a commonality.

So, I think your thoughts are more interesting.

And then, looking more closely at James1:8 "double-minded" is "di-psuchos" which is actually "double/two-souled" and a form of "psuchikos" (translated "natural"), so "double/two-souled can also be "double/two-natured".

Your thoughts seem to play-out and be confirmed.

So, the believer is both warned of being fleshly and double/two/bi-natured in thought and behavior. And both Paul and James speak of maturity (aka translated as perfection/completion at times - NET James 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. - being the way out of this condition.

Good thoughts, Mem!

Yes but James had one audience and Paul had a different audience with different problems being addressed.

 

[HeIsHere]

The only one I have seen in this thread who has said anyone "produces their own faith" is Magenta. No one believes we "produce [our] own faith".

Do we produce our own belief?

 

[Mem]

So, the believer is both warned of being fleshly and double/two/bi-natured in thought and behavior. And both Paul and James speak of maturity (aka translated as perfection/completion at times - NET James 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. - being the way out of this condition.

...so that I will be 'finished' and 'sound'... Thank you!

I think that this adds to my research into the distinctions made of different terms that are translated as "good" and "evil" as I find these thoughts segueing into Matthew 6:23-24, wherein 'good' is in some cases translated as 'single'.

Initially, I started to write, "I do wish there were a 'thank you' emoji available for the lazy," but I hesitated as I'd just happened to learn that 'slothful' is a viable translation of 'poneros' which is often otherwise translated as 'evil.'

 

[Mem]

Do we produce our own belief?

This seems to me the equivalent of asking if we produce our own sight.

 

[HeIsHere]

those to whom the gospel is foolishness understand the gospel ... they understand and consider it foolish.

From Believer's Bible Commentary (William MacDonald)

It will help us to understand the section that follows if we remember that the Corinthians, being Greeks, were great lovers of human wisdom. They regarded their philosophers as national heroes. Some of this spirit had apparently crept into the assembly at Corinth. There were those who desired to make the gospel more acceptable to the intelligentsia. They did not feel that it had status among scholars, and so they wanted to intellectualize the message. This worship of intellectualism was apparently one of the issues that was causing the people to form parties around human leaders. Efforts to make the gospel more acceptable are completely misguided. There is a vast difference between God’s wisdom and man’s, and there is no use trying to reconcile them. Paul now shows the folly of exalting men, and emphasizes that to do this is inconsistent with the true nature of the gospel (1 Cor 1:18–3:4). His first point is that the message of the cross is the opposite of all that men consider to be true wisdom (1Cor 1:18–25). ​

right ... this goes along the lines of what is written in 1 Cor 2:6-16 ... the problem is that some folks fold the simplicity of the gospel into the deeper spiritual matters which those who are unregenerate, or newborn babe in Christ, or a carnally minded christian cannot know ...
.

Not sure about making the Gospel more acceptable but rather trying to using solely human wisdom to understand spiritual reality.

Paul is addressing two groups the ones that are being saved (believers) and those who rejected the Gospel (non-believers) are the those are perishing.

Therefore the preaching of the Gospel divides people into two groups.

– those perishing and those being saved.

Once again we see Paul asserting in the letters to the Corinthians that the believer’s carnality, like the unbeliever’s rejection of God’s word, is a result of their own choosing, not of God’s determination.

 

[lrs68]

Can we really NOT exercise free will?

If you read Cain, Seth, Enoch, Moses, Joshua, several of the Prophets, Thief on the Cross, and others you clearly see a Free Will Act. Even the discussion between God and Cain has God telling Cain he can choose which kind of offering to offer up and can change.

Moses saw a burning bush and chose to inspect it so he made the first move and decision that led to God speaking to him.

Ultimately, none of these examples were forced and several of them included negotiating and fleecing and bartering with God like Joshua did. Later on he made the famous quote as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

Many many examples of Free Will from people like ourselves before committing to God through decision and choices made.

One has to be Spiritually Blind or rejecting Biblical truths in order to claim otherwise.

 

[cv5]

If you read Cain, Seth, Enoch, Moses, Joshua, several of the Prophets, Thief on the Cross, and others you clearly see a Free Will Act. Even the discussion between God and Cain has God telling Cain he can choose which kind of offering to offer up and can change.

Moses saw a burning bush and chose to inspect it so he made the first move and decision that led to God speaking to him.

Ultimately, none of these examples were forced and several of them included negotiating and fleecing and bartering with God like Joshua did. Later on he made the famous quote as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

Many many examples of Free Will from people like ourselves before committing to God through decision and choices made.

One has to be Spiritually Blind or rejecting Biblical truths in order to claim otherwise.

Plenty of FREE WILL in play here.

[Mat 13:45 KJV]
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

[Mat 13:46 KJV]
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

 

[BillyBob]

Does anyone know why when you accidentally hit reply the message you were replying yo never goes away its always there no matter how many times you erase it?

This happened to me once. It seems to be a glitch of some kind. However, I discovered that if you delete the text and then click on preview it will go away.

 

[Blain]

Revelation 19:11-21

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful
and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped
in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS​

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against
the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

And... Add to that!


Revelation 14:17-20

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel,
who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of about 180 miles.

Is that enough for you to be convinced?

There is going to be an unfathomable amount of bloodshed by the Lord's commanding it!

So where in this does it say how we are to bring a sword against each other? Yes I can see Jesus is coming with a sword but what has he commanded of us when it comes to each other?

 

[Jackson129]

So where in this does it say how we are to bring a sword against each other? Yes I can see Jesus is coming with a sword but what has he commanded of us when it comes to each other?

To love others as you love yourself. Turn the other cheek.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have been in many debates with calvies......But this bunch is openly antagonistic to His Gospel and possible seekers.

It’s really a lot like the ot Israelites it’s a repeat sort of . As we push away further and further from what he actually said in a covenant we tend to replace those things with our own ideas until we shape things to suit our desires

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To love others as you love yourself. Turn the other cheek.

Forgive and bless those whom insult and curse you

 

[Genez]

So where in this does it say how we are to bring a sword against each other?

In my opinion?
You are overreacting.
It is something too personal for you.

What you seek?
When a pastor teaches in church, everyone is to be silent and to keep their own opinions to themselves.
This format of an open forum and is not a church.
It can become a battlefield at times.
You don't like that. I understand.

Here is what is going on with this kind of doctrinal exchange, where what is on everyone's mind is open to be seen by all.

Don't you remember!?
Paul traveled and debated openly in the synagogues?
Things got heated at times when that happened.


Here is what Paul said, what can take place.

The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. ​

On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. ​

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up ​

against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought​

to make it obedient to Christ.​

​

2 Corinthians 10:4-5

This place not a church where the pastor speaks and everyone is to remain quiet and think to themselves.
Some express opposing arguments that are pretentious. Paul said that becomes 'warfare.'
And, to demolish with Truth.

I will tell you again...
If you want to be in total privacy to learn?
No one will try to contradict you while being taught?

Try this. https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html

Start with the Basic series.
Also check through the long list of topics!
No money will be asked for.

Yes, the basics.
The basic series can be quite advanced when compared to what we find today in typical churches.

Now? If you want to stay in a public forum like this one?
Realize that it is not like a local church.

It is for debate and open discussion.
Spiritual warfare will take place at times, because those who like to cause trouble find these places.

Don't try to stop it and turn it into a church atmosphere.
For you may be aiding and abetting the enemy when you do.

Interesting point:
If you ever want to see real sarcasm expressed in the Bible?
Find a pastor who can expertly teach you from the original languages.
The Holy Spirit will be very sarcastic at times.

Most translations have been designed to teach young children, those just starting out.

grace and peace ...........

 

[Genez]

It’s really a lot like the ot Israelites it’s a repeat sort of . As we push away further and further from what he actually said in a covenant we tend to replace those things with our own ideas until we shape things to suit our desires

Exactly.
That is why we have 2 Timothy 4:3!

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.​

That was quite prophetic.

 

[Mem]

This happened to me once. It seems to be a glitch of some kind. However, I discovered that if you delete the text and then click on preview it will go away.

I just tried that, and I only got a notification that said I had to enter valid text.