Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

Coming to believe involves a multi-faceted process that includes being called out of the world, hearing the Gospel, believing in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior, repenting of sin, confessing faith in Christ, and experiencing a transformed life having been made alive in Christ.

What God says:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

hear ... believe ... sealed


What Magenta says:

a multi-faceted process ... called out of the world ... hearing the Gospel ... believing in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior ... repenting of sin ... confessing faith in Christ ... experiencing a transformed life having been made alive in Christ

People without the Spirit cannot receive the things of the Spirit so that is what must come first despite the ridiculous claims of those who teach that the unregenerated person produces their own faith and then receives the Spirit.

The only one I have seen in this thread who has said anyone "produces their own faith" is Magenta. No one believes we "produce [our] own faith".

When utilized properly, faith believes the gospel ... God then fulfills His promise to those who believe ... and He creates the new creation within the newly born again one so he or she can begin to walk in alignment with Him ... mature and grow into a believer who is not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).

When not utilized properly, faith believes lies, suppresses the truth of Scripture, and the person suffers the consequence.

Since hearing is paramount, it cannot be discounted. What does the unregenerated person hear when the gospel is preached?

when the gospel is presented accurately according to Scripture, they hear that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Cor 15:1-4).

According to Romans 1:16-19, when the unregenerate hear the gospel, they either believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

If they believe, they receive the blessing promised by God (salvation).

If they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they receive the consequence of having rejected.

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

first you say this ...

The gospel is hid to the lost.

... and as has been explained to you "again and again. And again. And again" ...

... that it is the god of this world who vainly attempts to hide the gospel (2 Cor 4:3-4).

Under your rendering, you've got God ... the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein ... the Originator of the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... just not quite powerful enough to overcome the god of this world ... who was created by God, but God just made him a little too powerful and now God can't devise a plan to thwart him [rolleyes]

God is more powerful than satan and He reveals the gospel of Christ in the pages of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

God is more powerful than satan and He inspires and fully equips faithful believers to preach the gospel in all the world.

the gospel is understood by those who are perishing ... understood and rejected.



then you say this ...

Many of the free willing folks keep leaving that part off.

Starts looking deliberate after a while...

Especially when certain people do it again and again. And again. And again.

The same can be said of you as you continuously leave off the fact that the gospel is hid to the lost by the god of this world, whose ability to hide doesn't even come close to God's ability to reveal ... no contest ... satan is the loser in the battle between himself and God ... now if we could just get faithful believers to realize the all-encompassing magnificence of the God and Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Those who are perishing believe the gospel is foolishness because they hold the wisdom of man above the simplicity of the gospel.
.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

 

[Genez]

Show me where the scripture states this where is your proof?

Revelation 19:11-21

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful
and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped
in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS​

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against
the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

And... Add to that!


Revelation 14:17-20

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel,
who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of about 180 miles.

Is that enough for you to be convinced?

There is going to be an unfathomable amount of bloodshed by the Lord's commanding it!

 

[Genez]

Actually I got on to both @Genez and @Cameron143 about this and if I saw anyone else doing it I wouild correct them as well the Difference is that @Genez seems to want to justify their arguing and the way they speak while @Cameron143 seems to have settled down a bit

This exhortation is for everyone not just them in particular

Everyone?
Even for those who do not need the exhortation?

All should hear the exhortation directed as the one needing it, just like when a father might chide a bad child in front of his siblings.

 

[Magenta]

John 3 v 20-21 ~ Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.

 

[Kroogz]

The word used here has more possible meanings. It can also mean understanding as well as including a responsive action as a result of that understanding. Why didn't you include these definitions?

6000 posts of you and the reformed crowd trying to convince us that we CANNOT respond ,hear, see or understand.

You HAVE to see the Irony!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What God says:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

hear ... believe ... sealed


What Magenta says:

a multi-faceted process ... called out of the world ... hearing the Gospel ... believing in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior ... repenting of sin ... confessing faith in Christ ... experiencing a transformed life having been made alive in Christ





The only one I have seen in this thread who has said anyone "produces their own faith" is Magenta. No one believes we "produce [our] own faith".

When utilized properly, faith believes the gospel ... God then fulfills His promise to those who believe ... and He creates the new creation within the newly born again one so he or she can begin to walk in alignment with Him ... mature and grow into a believer who is not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).

When not utilized properly, faith believes lies, suppresses the truth of Scripture, and the person suffers the consequence.





when the gospel is presented accurately according to Scripture, they hear that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Cor 15:1-4).

According to Romans 1:16-19, when the unregenerate hear the gospel, they either believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

If they believe, they receive the blessing promised by God (salvation).

If they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they receive the consequence of having rejected.

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
.

Really good post. I’m still skeptical that “ “unregenerate “ is a word lol but we’ll said throughout

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

…Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked ( they surely aren’t “ regenerate “ ) forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD,( what the person does ) and he will have mercy upon him;( what he promises to do ) and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:1, 3, 6-8‬ ‭

Part of a sermon of Paul’s

“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:24-27, 30-31‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

6000 posts of you and the reformed crowd trying to convince us that we CANNOT respond ,hear, see or understand.

You HAVE to see the Irony!

“Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so that you may obey it.

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11-19‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I suppose israel was already secretly “born again “ or “regenerated “ because they could hear and grasp and obey his word according to his word to them and it wasn’t beyond them to hear and obey it … and he also offered then a choice between obedience and life and sin and death

 

[Kroogz]

first you say this ...


... and as has been explained to you "again and again. And again. And again" ...

... that it is the god of this world who vainly attempts to hide the gospel (2 Cor 4:3-4).

Under your rendering, you've got God ... the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein ... the Originator of the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... just not quite powerful enough to overcome the god of this world ... who was created by God, but God just made him a little too powerful and now God can't devise a plan to thwart him [rolleyes]

God is more powerful than satan and He reveals the gospel of Christ in the pages of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

God is more powerful than satan and He inspires and fully equips faithful believers to preach the gospel in all the world.

the gospel is understood by those who are perishing ... understood and rejected.



then you say this ...


The same can be said of you as you continuously leave off the fact that the gospel is hid to the lost by the god of this world, whose ability to hide doesn't even come close to God's ability to reveal ... no contest ... satan is the loser in the battle between himself and God ... now if we could just get faithful believers to realize the all-encompassing magnificence of the God and Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Those who are perishing believe the gospel is foolishness because they hold the wisdom of man above the simplicity of the gospel.
.

Great post.

If the calvies really held true to their beliefs......You would not see ONE of them here debating.

None can understand.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Great post.

If the calvies really held true to their beliefs......You would not see ONE of them here debating.

None can understand.

Some aren’t willing to do this part

““Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Nope! The gospel is the power of God for everyone who believes. The gospel is most certainly not the power of God for all lost sinners in the world.

Yeah …..Jesus didint come to save the lost sinners only the righteous only the already saved that’s who he came to save lol my goodness this place is like a kaleidoscope of beliefs

 

[Kroogz]

Yeah …..Jesus didint come to save the lost sinners only the righteous only the already saved that’s who he came to save lol my goodness this place is like a kaleidoscope of beliefs

I have been in many debates with calvies......But this bunch is openly antagonistic to His Gospel and possible seekers.

 

[Hakawaka]

I take it that you don't care much for God's rule over the entire universe and everything in it. Don't you know that both good and evil proceed from God's mouth?

Who needs a devil when you can just believe in the calvinist god. Two in one package.

The way I see Isaiah 45:7 is that God brings peace and calamity. When Israel was in sin He brought them calamity, when they were in obedience He brought forth peace.

Jeremiah 18 confirms this, as does the actual covenant Israel entered into in Deuteronomy for example.

All over the Bible.... God doesn't just bring evil and calamity upon a people for no reason to play games. Its a punishment for sin.

 

[Mem]

You seem to jump into ad hominem and misunderstanding. All I told you is that I have things that you will not get access to via Google. To expand upon this, I know of some of the resources available on public domain and I know that they are not the ones most relied upon in scholarship today. And, I never said anything about a lone scholar. I read things on different points of view seeking mostly exegetical arguments in the Text. If you'd like to watch something I just found interesting that comes via discussion on this thread, try this and see what you think:

And I may even agree with you that those definitions should be considered and discussed, but I'd like to see where you're getting them. Referencing is a very basic practice. Also, if you look back a few pages, I brought up that there is a range of meaning that in fairness should be discussed. Do some work and present it.

The context supports the definition that is not only primary but also seen not just by me and has been presented by others. Repeat, do some work and present it.

You did change the definition of the word as translated by translations as presented. You also added the word "spiritual" to understanding which is not in the definitions but is being added by you to make this section of Scripture compare to Scripture like 1Cor2:14 which I also think you misunderstand in context.

I presented to you what the language says. Third person imperative commands are typically translated with "let him" making it sound like a suggestion or leaving some ambiguity to the English ear. But it's simply a command which is why the NET translated it as it did. You can find whatever you think will help. I know how to read the language, and this is a very simple thing to read. Again, do some work and prove me wrong. Consider the following as you begin. I'm providing several translations in case you think I'm being too selective:

LXA Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say to them, Thus saith the Lord, He that hears, let him hear; and he that is disobedient, let him be disobedient: because it is a provoking house.​

​

NKJ Ezekiel 3:27 "But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.' He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.​

​

NET Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak with you, I will loosen your tongue and you must say to them, 'This is what the sovereign LORD says.' Those who listen will listen, but the indifferent will refuse, for they are a rebellious house.​

​

ESV Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.' He who will hear, let him hear; and he who will refuse to hear, let him refuse, for they are a rebellious house.​

​

NAS Ezekiel 3:27 "But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth, and you will say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God.' He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.​

What do you think Jesus may have been suggesting in using this phrase several times in the Gospels?

Scripture please and are you comparing Revelation to the Gospels?

Your address to Cameron's points and your mention of the ambiguity in the English ear generate a thought of the doubleminded man which I've gathered to be a man who doubts according to James 1:5-8. And as I considered what might be the two parts involved in a 'doublemind,' I was able to define that more precisely, according to that context, as that 'man that asks in faith but with (rather than not) doubting' is double-minded. Do you think it would be unreasonable then, if that is indeed the true definition of the double-minded, to conclude that the two parts of a double-mind is thinking with one part natural and one part spiritual?

 

[Hakawaka]

I have been in many debates with calvies......But this bunch is openly antagonistic to His Gospel and possible seekers.

Its a crafty belief system. Logically consistent grid, yet unbiblical. They talk about grace and many contend for perseverance of the saints, meaning you cant lose your salvation. But their version of it brings no comfort to people.

Those who believe they can lose their salvation have more security than calvinists, if you remain in the faith you are saved but calvinists have no assurances. Thats a fact. Because you can never know if God has deceived you and given you temporary grace without the gift of perseverance and you just fall off like the many others. What if you aren't one of the elect? No one has ever considered that. Someone posted a good meme about it in this thread, it was a picture with a tunnel that said "Calvinists who believe they are elect" and a bunch of people entering and another tunnel with 0 people entering that said "Calvinists who believe they are non-elect" and thats the way it is.

My view: Being elect doesnt equate to being saved. Israel was elect, yet only a remnant were saved.

I just dont see it. Nothing is over until its over. Saul was chosen to be a king for Israel, he was anointed for the job and his throne was to be established forever but because he sinned, he lost the privilege of being the ruler in Israel.

1 Sam. 2:30
Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

So forever wasnt forever after all. These people probably made the same mistake the jews did in general, they got sloppy and sinful and said to themselves "we have the promises, the covenants, we are the offspring of Abraham" but little does it matter, all those promises and covenants are irrelevant if you go and worship baal.

This verse is also another text against calvinism, because they claim no one can honour God unless God grants it. So the correct calvinist translation would be:

"Be it far from me, for them that I have enabled to honour me will honour me, and they that by my decree I have decided not to regenerate will despise me and there is nothing they can do about it, will be lightly esteemed"

That and God being angry at His own decree all the time. Oh Israel, why did you do this? Repent Israel. Oh wait, its God's fault they arent repenting cause He is refusing to give the gift of repentance. This is why I say there is no difference between God and the devil in calvinism. Its the same guy

 

[Hakawaka]

The sword He wielded in the Incarnation was a slice and dicer (divide) but the sword in His mouth now is a head chopper and it most definitely destroys. That is the point Blain. It's why we do not tolerate evil and Christians can, quite often, be the worst peddlers of evil.

Amen.

Rarely preached in the itching ears "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, in fact He is your best friend." churches (i have actually heard some disrespectful witches call God their "homeboy", thats NOT how you approach the KING):

Psalm 2:8-9 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psalm 110:
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

That is the same Jesus that said "Forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing". What is the difference? In the first coming Jesus came as a sacrificial lamb, the suffering servant. In the second coming He is coming as the king of kings and the Lord of Lords and will execute judgment and wrath on His enemies and those who persecute His people. He will deliver us from this babylon system when He returns.

 

[Jackson129]

Amen.

Rarely preached in the itching ears "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, in fact He is your best friend." churches (i have actually heard some disrespectful witches call God their "homeboy", thats NOT how you approach the KING):

Psalm 2:8-9 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psalm 110:
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

That is the same Jesus that said "Forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing". What is the difference? In the first coming Jesus came as a sacrificial lamb, the suffering servant. In the second coming He is coming as the king of kings and the Lord of Lords and will execute judgment and wrath on His enemies and those who persecute His people. He will deliver us from this babylon system when He returns.

 

[Jackson129]

Does anyone know why when you accidentally hit reply the message you were replying yo never goes away its always there no matter how many times you erase it?

 

[GWH]

Can we really NOT exercise free will?