Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Hakawaka]

What unmitigated nonsense! So, were all the false prophets, false teachers, false preachers and false shepherds "only mere generations from the Apostles"! So, what is you point, again? As I posted once: 24 of the 26 NT books contain warnings about such people -- and all those books were written in the first century! And false gospels still abound today in this dark, forlorn world!

Boohoo, God predestined those false gospels. Why are you going against God's decree?

Or wait, you actually aren't you were decreed to oppose gospels you deem false.

What a trip!

Did you hear about the Calvinist that fell down a flight of stairs? She said, “Thank goodness that’s over with”.

In all seriousness though: You seem to dislike these other gospels, but doesnt it bother you AT ALL that behind alll of it is God's eternal decree? Its not the devil thats twisting it, its God that DECREES that people and satan twist the scriptures.

Thats why im not a calvinist

 

[cv5]

The only liars here are you FWers! You just can't resist posting stupid straw men rebuttals, can you? No one here ever claimed what you wrote. I, for one, have frequently said that one must be born of the WORD (i.e. "gospel message") AND the Holy Spirit. So...salvation is certainly available and obtainable by God's efficacious grace.

I see that you still haven't come up with a passage that proves that Adam exercised faith after he sinned. You're having a tough time, are you, in proving from scripture that you didn't lie about that as well? Okay.... maybe you can answer this next question re the Parable of the Banquet in Lk 14:16-24. There are three groups of people mentioned in this parable to wit:

A. The invited (vv. 17-20)
B. The ones brought into the banquet (vv. 21-22)
C. The ones who were compelled to attend (vv. 23-24)

My question to you if you think you're up to it is this: Of these three groups, which ones, if any, were called to attend the banquet?

And the rest of you FWers, feel free to jump in and answer this question.

Nailed all of them. Home runs too. Every last pitch was in the bleachers buddy.

 

[Cameron143]

Nah you wouldnt answer it that way. You would answer it the biblical way but then keep that TULIP framework in your mind.

"Im gonna repeat this and if he believes it hes one of the chosen frozen"

Wheres waldo?

You left out...
Us four
No more
Shut the door

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thats how the devil likes to do things. Take verses that CAN be interpreted in another way, like the calvinist proof texts that can be explained thru foreknowledge as Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2 confirms and twist them to fit the TULIP interpretative grid.

Then take CLEAR CUT VERSES like 1 Tim 2:4 that EVERYONE can understand, some of the simplest verses in the Bible that only a theologian could fail to understand and twist them as well to fit the TULIP grid.

amen it’s necassary if I want to “ improve upon “ what’s there to fit my own idea or to eliminate things I deem not relevant

subtle but somewhat effective

 

[Rufus]

Okay. Easy.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But you already knew this. So you are probably only asking to provide the weak sauce "all kinds of men" interpretation.

Only weak, feeble, darkened minds that ignore context could come with an interpretation that differs from "all kinds of men".

And for your info, the text does not say it's God wills/decrees that all men be saved. It says, rather, that God desires that all men be saved.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So, why did you ask whether faith is a gift or not?

A gift given to people who hear and believe the gospel ….

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

 

[cv5]

Boohoo, God predestined those false gospels. Why are you going against God's decree?

Or wait, you actually aren't you were decreed to oppose gospels you deem false.

What a trip!

Did you hear about the Calvinist that fell down a flight of stairs? She said, “Thank goodness that’s over with”.

In all seriousness though: You seem to dislike these other gospels, but doesnt it bother you AT ALL that behind alll of it is God's eternal decree? Its not the devil thats twisting it, its God that DECREES that people and satan twist the scriptures.

Thats why im not a calvinist

Yup. Super-determinist doctrine would give even Gene Roddenberry a headache.

 

[Cameron143]

Amen and our choice of which to follow and serve

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The natural man operates only according to the flesh. His mind is hostile towards God and is not subject to the law, nor can he be...Romans 8:7. So how does someone in that estate believe the command to believe or mortify the flesh?

 

[Rufus]

The Bible defines death as separation.

Calvinism/reformed defines death as inability or medical death.

This error in definition allows them to manipulate scripture.

Translate: You hate the metaphor "death", so you'll do all in your power to whitewash it away to strip it of all the parallels between both kinds of death. How honest of you...

 

[Hakawaka]

Only weak, feeble, darkened minds that ignore context could come with an interpretation that differs from "all kinds of men".

And for your info, the text does not say it's God wills/decrees that all men be saved. It says, rather, that God desires that all men be saved.

How is desiring any different than willing? My will is that you will succeed in life. I desire you to succeed in life.. Paul could of just said all kinds of men, but since he believed in universal atonement he did not.

And if God does desire all men be saved, why doesnt God do it? Could it be because God created us in His image, and part of that image is having that thing you dislike so much, free will to make moral decisions. Without that we are no different than animals. We are in the image of God. That is why we invent things.

My interpretation is straight forward, God does want all to be saved, Jesus is the mediator between God and man, and no it does not lead to universalism because you must receive the reconciliation. God has already reconciled the entire world, but it is up to us to receive that:

2 Cor 5:19-20
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Simple, read it, believe it. Even in the old testament on the day of atonement just because atonement was made for the entire nation, it did not matter if you didn't humble yourself, the atonement didnt do you no good:

Leviticus 23:28 On this day you are not to do any work, for it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God.
29If anyone does not humble himself on this day, he must be cut off from his people.

This once again proves false the calvinist theory that just because God reconciled the entire world and died for the sins of the entire world that everyone is automatically saved. It wasnt that way in the OT and its not that way now. You have to receive the gift of eternal life to be reconciled as 2 Cor 5:20 clearly says and the entire NT witness does too.

Its just so simple you have to be a theologian to not get it. Someone has to be in your ear messing you up. You're not gonna be in a prison cell reading the Bible and coming up with this unless someone tells you this beforehand and inserts the TULIP Grid into your mind.

Oh, and about that total depravity thing which will be brought up regarding free will:

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Only see this: I have discovered that God made people upright, but they pursued many schemes.”

 

[Rufus]

I'm not the one who believes dead people can hear; you are.

And can see. And can understand. The spiritually living have nothing over the spiritually dead...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Only weak, feeble, darkened minds that ignore context could come with an interpretation that differs from "all kinds of men".

And for your info, the text does not say it's God wills/decrees that all men be saved. It says, rather, that God desires that all men be saved.

Right his Will is that all Men believe and be saved . No one’s saying God decreed that it would happen some are saying god decreed only a the “ chosen ones “ would be saved . No one on the other side is saying Gid decreed tbat everyone shall be saved . But tbat all who believe the gospel shall be saved and all who do t will be damned that’s the decree . his Will is that all would repent and be saved but it’s up to them

Its why it’s silly for us to say he chose o my a few and enabled only a few and the others he never gave them a chance or ability like he did “ the chosen ones “

his desire for all to be saved is right here

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but notice even though he wants everyone to repent and be saved believing the gospel there’s an optional outcome for all creatures based upon if they believe the gospel when they hear it or don’t believe it .

If gods desire is that all will be saved why would his plan be to only save a group of chosen ones ? And not make it possible for the others he wants to be saved to be saved ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The natural man operates only according to the flesh. His mind is hostile towards God and is not subject to the law, nor can he be...Romans 8:7. So how does someone in that estate believe the command to believe or mortify the flesh?

Sigh ….

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Of course we have a will but the agurment of free will vs having a will would suggest that if we are only free when Jesus sets us free until then we are slaves and therefore not free, we have the freedom to choose but to freely choose we must be set free we see in scripture that we are called slaves to sin or slaves to Christ not called free

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Faithful believers witness to unbelievers and present the truth of the gospel ... this is God making the first move ... reaching out to mankind through the method He stated He would reach out (1 Cor 1:21). The Scriptures themselves are God making the first move in reaching out to fallen man.

When the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is presented to the unbeliever, he or she can either believe, and the power of God works salvation to him or her ... or he or she can suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence of suppressing/rejecting.

According to some who have posted in this thread, natural man will never, never, never, under any circumstance, believe the gospel ... even when God reaches out to him or her to begin with.


Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The word "confess" is translated from the Greek word homologeō which means to say the same thing as.

When the gospel is presented to the unbeliever ... he or she confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes God raised Him from the dead, he or she is saved and it is God Who works salvation ... not the faith of the one who believed or the confession of the one who confessed.

According to some who have posted in this thread, the natural man cannot "say the same thing as" what God's Word says. The verse does not say that the natural man considers Jesus Christ as Lord on his or her own. And please note, the verse implies that there is something heard (or read) that the natural man can either "say the same thing as" what God's Word says ... or the natural man can suppress the truth in unrighteousness and not "say the same thing as" God's Word.

According to some who have posted in this thread, natural man will never, under any circumstance, "say the same thing" as what God's Word says ... even when God sends His Word so folks can seek Him, find Him, believe Him ... or when God sends a faithful believer to speak His Word to the unbeliever.


I believe God has provided all mankind needs ... even in his fallen state ... to come to faith in Him, when He reaches out to them. Others believe differently. It's interesting, though, Blain, I have asked some if they believe the Lord Jesus Christ is Messiah ... I ask "is Jesus Christ Lord in your life" ... and they don't respond. They won't say yes, Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus said Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven (Matt 10:32) ... scratchin' my head over that one ...

And the reason I ask is because there is an insistence that no one can believe unless God "gifts" faith ... some have even gone so far as to claim they don't have to believe ... or I don't believe - the Lord Jesus Christ believes for me (or words to that effect) ... so I ask point blank "is Jesus Christ Lord in your life". If someone cannot even acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord in their life in an online Christian forum where there is anonymity ... yikes ...
.

 

[Rufus]

How is desiring any different than willing? My will is that you will succeed in life. I desire you to succeed in life.. Paul could of just said all kinds of men, but since he believed in universal atonement he did not.

And if God does desire all men be saved, why doesnt God do it? Could it be because God created us in His image, and part of that image is having that thing you dislike so much, free will to make moral decisions. Without that we are no different than animals. We are in the image of God. That is why we invent things.

My interpretation is straight forward, God does want all to be saved, Jesus is the mediator between God and man, and no it does not lead to universalism because you must receive the reconciliation. God has already reconciled the entire world, but it is up to us to receive that:

2 Cor 5:19-20
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Simple, read it, believe it. Even in the old testament on the day of atonement just because atonement was made for the entire nation, it did not matter if you didn't humble yourself, the atonement didnt do you no good:

Leviticus 23:28 On this day you are not to do any work, for it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God.
29If anyone does not humble himself on this day, he must be cut off from his people.

This once again proves false the calvinist theory that just because God reconciled the entire world and died for the sins of the entire world that everyone is automatically saved. It wasnt that way in the OT and its not that way now. You have to receive the gift of eternal life to be reconciled as 2 Cor 5:20 clearly says and the entire NT witness does too.

Its just so simple you have to be a theologian to not get it. Someone has to be in your ear messing you up. You're not gonna be in a prison cell reading the Bible and coming up with this unless someone tells you this beforehand and inserts the TULIP Grid into your mind.

Because desires don't mean they necessarily translate into ACTIONS! Did God merely "desire" to create the universe or did he decree the universe into existence? Besides, if God's decretive will was in view in 1Tim 2:4, then we'd have a serious theological problem since God's will is being frustrated, thwarted and blocked -- which scripture says CANNOT happen -- except of course with the false gods of FWT!

 

[Cameron143]

Sigh ….

I'm sorry. You have been telling me to accept what scripture plainly states. Was that only for me?

 

[Hakawaka]

Because desires don't mean they necessarily translate into ACTIONS! Did God merely "desire" to create the universe or did he decree the universe into existence? Besides, if God's decretive will was in view in 1Tim 2:4, then we'd have a serious theological problem since God's will is being frustrated, thwarted and blocked -- which scripture says CANNOT happen -- except of course with the false gods of FWT!

Nah no problem, I dont buy into the philosophical two wills nonsense.

God's will isnt blocked, didnt you just say the verse says desire and not will? Oops.

But lets play along: Did you read the verses I posted, God has reconciled EVERYTHING, yet the next verse says: BE YE RECONCILED, they are asking these people on Christ's behalf.

So God's will was to create man in His image, and its based on love, relationships are love based.

 

[Rufus]

“But what your bolded statement above does not say is that God wills or has decreed that everyone be saved! “

yes you and some others do that constantly you avoid what it says and then say “ bit it doesn’t say these exact words that I’m saying “ …. Constant creations of straw men to distract from what’s there

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“ it doesn’t say all men without exception “

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“ it doesn’t say all creation without exception and they can’t hear it unless they are chosen “ ….. it’s not a fruitful situation to use one’s time spinning corcle and playing word games musical chairs

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a ot he o ly died for those who are als ready saved not the world “ …. Never gets anywhere because no one accepts the information that’s actually there

Nor does it say all men w/o exception! BUT...the CONTEXT demands an interpretation of "all men w/o distinction", which I have explained many times. Ditto for your 1Jn 2:1-2. You take it totally out of context! The Jews ("our sins") are excluded from "the whole world", therefore, logically, the text cannot mean all mankind w/o exception.

 

[Rufus]

Nah no problem, I dont buy into the philosophical two wills nonsense.

God's will isnt blocked, didnt you just say the verse says desire and not will? Oops.

But lets play along: Did you read the verses I posted, God has reconciled EVERYTHING, yet the next verse says: BE YE RECONCILED, they are asking these people on Christ's behalf.

So God's will was to create man in His image, and its based on love, relationships are love based.

God's will would be thwarted and frustrated if we understand the text as referring to God's will in the sense of his DECREE, since only a small fraction of the world is being saved. But scripture says that this isn't possible.

 

[Rufus]

Boohoo, God predestined those false gospels. Why are you going against God's decree?

Or wait, you actually aren't you were decreed to oppose gospels you deem false.

What a trip!

Did you hear about the Calvinist that fell down a flight of stairs? She said, “Thank goodness that’s over with”.

In all seriousness though: You seem to dislike these other gospels, but doesnt it bother you AT ALL that behind alll of it is God's eternal decree? Its not the devil thats twisting it, its God that DECREES that people and satan twist the scriptures.

Thats why im not a calvinist

Now you're catching on....God predestined all those false doctrines just like he predestined Eve for salvation, Judas for hell and all the evil that befell Joseph in the OT.