Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Romans 3 v 9B-18~ Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. As it is written, “There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The venom of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery lie in their wake, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[studier]

What part of my last response to you whereby I highlighted your falsehood pertaining to foreknowledge that God foreknew who would believe? There's not a thing in Rom 8:28-30 that even remotely hints that God knew certain activities of the "whom" (or "those") in eternity. Conversely, I have recently provided about 4 strands of evidence that clearly show that God's foreknowledge is NOT rooted in prescience but rather in divine prerogative. And it's the latter that is going on in the above mentioned passage, which by the way harmonizes quite nicely with Rom 9:15-21.

If you can clearly post word for word what your issue is, I may take a look.

When I mentioned to @Cameron143 things about foreknowledge, the hard facts are that any of us can do a little work online these days and find the several different views re: foreknowledge based in different interpretational systems. We're way past the days that we had to hope our pastor was geared up sufficiently to make us aware of such things. Many if not most of those in the pews don't even know there are other interpretations of much of anything. And some could absolutely care less about any doctrinal debates.

Your thinking you have proven anything in this matter to substantiate your favored system is indicative of one of the issues with your approach. It's like you're saying if you could go back in history all of the doctrinal debates would be settled. They wouldn't be and you should just accept this. We're all talking mostly to walls around here.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But faith is God's gift

are you referring to Ephesians 2:8?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
.

 

[Rufus]

I just quoted a verse that says He unequivocally moves before belief.

God ALWAYS makes the first move.......It's just not salvation.

The Spirit moves.....Man can choose for or against.

John 16~~
And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;
2 Cor 6:2
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

John 3:16
Acts 16:31

The games are old.

Your above quote should read:

" It's your side that believes the Spirit SAVES the moment one believes." The Spirit is ALWAYS moving to influence and convince unbelievers.

And the Holy Spirit has a 100% success rate with every heart which He circumcises and instills into the Fear of the Lord prior to any unbeliever coming to faith.

 

[Rufus]

are you referring to Ephesians 2:8?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
.

That and several other passages, as well. Why do you ask: You don't like God's gift? Or you're too good for his gracious gift? Or God would be playing favorites if he did that?

 

[studier]

God is the Subject of Rom 8:298-30 -- not sinners, nor their faith. What's in view is God's sovereign PLAN of salvation, which does not depend on the counsel of sinners.

We were discussing the "whom" in the verses - the ones who love God. We know whose plan is being discussed.

 

[Magenta]

@Rufus , thank you for the inspiration for the above panel (in post number 5,761)...

 

[Rufus]

If you can clearly post word for word what your issue is, I may take a look.

When I mentioned to @Cameron143 things about foreknowledge, the hard facts are that any of us can do a little work online these days and find the several different views re: foreknowledge based in different interpretational systems. We're way past the days that we had to hope our pastor was geared up sufficiently to make us aware of such things. Many if not most of those in the pews don't even know there are other interpretations of much of anything. And some could absolutely care less about any doctrinal debates.

Your thinking you have proven anything in this matter to substantiate your favored system is indicative of one of the issues with your approach. It's like you're saying if you could go back in history all of the doctrinal debates would be settled. They wouldn't be and you should just accept this. We're all talking mostly to walls around here.

Everyone here knows where I stand. Foreknowledge has zero to do with prescience and everything to do with divine prerogative. And not even you can spin Rom 8:28-30 fast enough to get it mean the former.

I don't do eisegesis, so you never have to worry about me reading any passage into my presuppositions to support an agenda. My only agenda is to be faithful to God's Holy Word to the best of my ability and to never knowingly mislead anyone

And, no, I have no illusions of grandeur that if I could go back in Time (which I plan writing about soon), my biblical proof would not settle any arguments. Scripture is very clear that there will always be detractors, false teachers, false prophets, false believers who will pervert the Gospel. It's in fallen man's DNA. It's what lovers of Darkness and Haters of Christ, His Truth and his Church do.

Have a pleasant evening, sir...

 

[Rufus]

We were discussing the "whom" in the verses - the ones who love God. We know whose plan is being discussed.

Good! Then know this too: God's plan does not depend on the counsel of man.

 

[Magenta]

Your thinking you have proven anything in this matter to substantiate your favored system is indicative of one of
the issues with your approach. It's like you're saying if you could go back in history all of the doctrinal debates
would be settled. They wouldn't be and you should just accept this. We're all talking mostly to walls around here.

Jeepers. Just yesterday you claimed we'd had our hats handed to us. Your unwarranted crowing does not go unnoticed.

Brag brag brag, what we hear is bawk bawk bawk.

You and your friends have had your hats handed to you on this thread.

 

[Genez]

But faith is God's gift...and therefore God's work. Do you know what a "play on words" means?

Got Faith?

"So then faith comes by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God."

Romans 10:17​

Faith that is ours, is what we choose to believe, as found from God's Word.

 

[Magenta]

Bawk Bawk

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 4 verse 4 ~ The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the image of God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

are you referring to Ephesians 2:8?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

That and several other passages, as well.

please provide the verses upon which you rely in your claim that faith is God's gift. thanks.

Why do you ask: You don't like God's gift?

please provide the post submitted by me wherein I indicated I "don't like God's gift. thanks.

Or you're too good for his gracious gift?

please provide the post submitted by me wherein I indicated I am "too good for His gracious gift". thank you.

Or God would be playing favorites if he did that?

please provide the post submitted by me wherein I indicated "God would be playing favorites if He did that". thanks.


If you cannot provide the requested information, then perhaps you should preview the post you intend to submit before you click "Post reply" ... all you are doing when you denigrate fellow believers is reveal that you are unable to control your natural brutish instincts.

Again, I ask: Are you born again, Rufus? Is the Jesus Christ Lord in your life?
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Scripture says all given to Jesus by God will come. I don't see where it says we choose to or can decide not to...

John 6:35-37 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

read Scripture with a view toward understanding words within verses ... verses within immediate context ... immediate context within remoter context ...

when we rip a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse ... that is eisegesis ... that is no bueno ...
.

 

[HeIsHere]

Is God morally obligated to save anyone?

Another loaded question... I am pretty sure God always acts out of love and not obligation.

 

[Jackson129]

Either they found grace in the eyes of the Lord like Noah and heard the word of the Lord and believed like Abraham, or they did not. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

I can accept that awnser. Gives me more to think about.

 

[HeIsHere]

John 6:35-37 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

read Scripture with a view toward understanding words within verses ... verses within immediate context ... immediate context within remoter context ...

when we rip a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse ... that is eisegesis ... that is no bueno ...
.

Sorry, I had to laugh.
And still laughing.....

 

[HeIsHere]

I can accept that awnser. Gives me more to think about.

Yes it typically starts acceptable.

 

[Magenta]

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).