Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

But man is morally corrupt -- from the top of his head to the soles of his feet (Isaiah 1)! So understanding the Gospel is impossible because men naturally love the Darkness because their deeds are evil. And the Darkness cannot comprehend the truth! And without God graciously and effectively instilling the Fear of Himself into people's hearts their love for that darkness will NEVER change. The Fear of the Lord is the mechanism by which men turn away from evil, shun evil, hate evil, etc. The Fear of the Lord is one the primary mechanisms for CHANGE. Another major mechanism for CHANGE is God's circumcision of the heart.

Fallen man is as immutable as God is. And only God can fix that!

Proverbs 9 v 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.


Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one.

There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

All have turned away, they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good, not even one.”

“Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.”

“The venom of vipers is on their lips.”

“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”

“Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery lie in their wake,

and the way of peace they have not known.”

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[studier]

I disagree with you about the theme of Romans. I believe it is about the revelation of God's righteousness through faith in Christ. You always seem to consider the Bible and its connection to man rather than what it reveals about God.

You say God knew who would love Him. Of course. We only love Him in response to His love.

I doubt we disagree on what foreknowledge is, but disagree on what the foreknowledge is referring to.

You disagree about it being about Faith? When you think about Faith, who is the subject of that Faith? So, when I point out Paul's bookending of Romans with Faith-Obedience [in-to God], I'm focusing on man instead of God? Here are the bookends and one intermediary near the end:

ESV Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,​

​

ESV Romans 11:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient--​

​

ESV Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--​

My focus as a man in Christ in Spirit is how we are told to relate to our Perfect Heavenly Father and Perfect Lord Jesus Christ. IOW. I'm interested in both God and our relating to Him. If you think you see a focus, it's likely because I see Him and what He does in absolute perfection that we all can just accept while we focus on what He in perfection wants from His currently imperfect sons. IOW, we're the ones who need understanding and help, not Him, and it saddens me that we are not much, much better at being like Father & First-Born Brother like sons & siblings conformed to His likeness.

There's more to this, but this will do for now.

From what I gather from your post, you don't want to explain your view of foreknowledge or what the various views are or which one of those views you think is closest to yours. I don't blame you actually.

End of discussion? Probably best.

 

[sawdust]

But man is morally corrupt -- from the top of his head to the soles of his feet (Isaiah 1)! So understanding the Gospel is impossible because men naturally love the Darkness because their deeds are evil. And the Darkness cannot comprehend the truth! And without God graciously and effectively instilling the Fear of Himself into people's hearts their love for that darkness will NEVER change. The Fear of the Lord is the mechanism by which men turn away from evil, shun evil, hate evil, etc. The Fear of the Lord is one the primary mechanisms for CHANGE. Another major mechanism for CHANGE is God's circumcision of the heart.

Fallen man is as immutable as God is. And only God can fix that!

Man is not born morally corrupt, he becomes that way. To what degree depends on whether and how much he learns from the Father. Jn.6:45

Like I keep telling you, you understand God's grace can do the miraculous like raising a man from the dead but you can't comprehend less grace to hold a man's flesh in check for a moment to present the truth of God.

You have such an exceedingly low opinion of man that you place Him in an irredeemable position but then have God flex His muscles to the max in order to redeem Him. Why even bother? Wipe out the lot and start again by creating only the your "so called elect". No-one is impressed by your god who does nothing for the man who did nothing for Him. Where's the grace in that? Now, a God who pours out His grace upon a man who He knows would never do a thing for Him no matter how much grace and kindness He extends even to the point of dying for him? Now that is a God who is seen to be worthy, we don't have to simply take His word for it. That God puts His money where His mouth is! That God doesn't simply claim being sovereign but but shows us He is also merciful and full of integrity.

Psalm 8:3-6
When I look up at the heavens, which your fingers made,
and see the moon and the stars, which you set in place,
4 Of what importance is the human race, that you should notice them?
Of what importance is mankind, that you should pay attention to them?
5 You made them a little less than the heavenly beings.
You crowned mankind with honor and majesty.
6 you appoint them to rule over your creation;
you have placed everything under their authority,

Adam plunged this world into darkness. God looks upon this world with love and compassion because He is that God. You, on the other hand, look at this world with hatred and contempt.

"Choose you this day who you will serve".

 

[sawdust]

The word is kosmos. It refers to the entire creation. Mankind is merely a part of creation. Jesus came to destroy the works of the Satan. It's not only humanity that He is making new.

I told you what the word was and its meaning.

If what you say is true here then Christ died for all creation. How does that not include every man and angel yet you said earlier, angels have no plan of salvation. Your theology is so inconsistent.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Magenta]

You disagree about it being about Faith?

He explicitly said, "I believe it is about the revelation of God's righteousness through faith in Christ."

Your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired.

I believe it is about the revelation of God's righteousness through faith in Christ.

 

[Genez]

yes ...

As we observe what is going on in our day and time, the foolishness of mankind ... as well as the evil ... we could easily succumb to fear.

That applies to every generation

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, ​

but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." ​

Philippians 2:12

 

[Pilgrimshope]

yes.
.

Agreed

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That applies to every generation

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, ​

but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." ​

Philippians 2:12

Amen

“For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Genez]

If what you say is true here then Christ died for all creation. How does that not include every man and angel yet you said earlier, angels have no plan of salvation. Your theology is so inconsistent.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

"Word usage," seems to be the problem here.

As a word with several meanings as used in its context will determine the meaning.

A cosmic believer refers to his way of thinking.

When it says... "God so loved the world?"
Jesus did not die for the mountains and rivers...

But? If one likes arguing?

 

[Genez]

So, the "Bride of Christ" is a mixed bag: unbelievers and believers? You play a lousy game of semantics. You can't even understand Jn 6:29: Faith is God's WORK. It's not the work of man since all men naturally hate God. Jesus often employed the literary device of "play on words". The sovereign work of God is the gift of faith; man's responsibility is to believe.

The disciples had been asking what works must they do (pointing to works conjured up by men).

Those works were the works of men.

Jesus in response said...

God has a work of His own for us to do.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The disciples had been asking what works must they do (pointing to works conjured up by men).

Those works were the works of men.

Jesus in response said...

God has a work of His own for us to do.

The law

“And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭24:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the law was given by Moses,

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Lords word

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-42‬ ‭

that’s two different mindsets one is “ if someone offends me and hurts me I’m told to retaliate in equal measure an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth life for a life ect told and taught do not show pity but take equal revenge

the other is telling me when someone offends you don’t retaliate with evil but overcome evil with good . Leave room for the lord to take vengeance and take non for yourself but instead forgive when someone sins against you bless when someone insults you and don’t curse in response ect

different testaments and mindsets

The law

“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The lords word

“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:2-5, 7-12‬ ‭

It’s important to make sure we’re listening to the right word and covenant because one of them is not like the other

“but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament;

which vail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:14-15‬ ‭

What I mean to say is there are the works of the law we find in Moses doctrine e.g. “ eye for an eye tooth for a tooth go ahead and divorce and remarry if your not happy “

and then there are the actions of faith we find in Christs doctrine “ turn the other cheek don’t take revenge forgive don’t get divorced unless there’s adultery but if you do don’t remarry “


Two doctrines are present in scripture

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Rufus]

You have a sickness. Are you on meds? Pet your cats and relax before you post.
Where does it say what specifically?
What exactly are you referring to?
I don't "pride myself". I explain my background and training and offer to go through Scripture word by word with anybody who will knowledgeably participate in doing the same. At that level I'm open to being shown how I may be wrong in an interpretation.

What part of my last response to you whereby I highlighted your falsehood pertaining to foreknowledge that God foreknew who would believe? There's not a thing in Rom 8:28-30 that even remotely hints that God knew certain activities of the "whom" (or "those") in eternity. Conversely, I have recently provided about 4 strands of evidence that clearly show that God's foreknowledge is NOT rooted in prescience but rather in divine prerogative. And it's the latter that is going on in the above mentioned passage, which by the way harmonizes quite nicely with Rom 9:15-21.

 

[Rufus]

The disciples had been asking what works must they do (pointing to works conjured up by men).

Those works were the works of men.

Jesus in response said...

God has a work of His own for us to do.

But faith is God's gift...and therefore God's work. Do you know what a "play on words" means?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Proverbs 9 v 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.


Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one.

There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

All have turned away, they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good, not even one.”

“Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.”

“The venom of vipers is on their lips.”

“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”

“Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery lie in their wake,

and the way of peace they have not known.”

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

“Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A book of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name.

“On the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty, “they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1, 3-5‬ ‭

 

[Rufus]

The law

“And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭24:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the law was given by Moses,

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Lords word

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-42‬ ‭

that’s two different mindsets one is “ if someone offends me and hurts me I’m told to retaliate in equal measure an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth life for a life ect told and taught do not show pity but take equal revenge

the other is telling me when someone offends you don’t retaliate with evil but overcome evil with good . Leave room for the lord to take vengeance and take non for yourself but instead forgive when someone sins against you bless when someone insults you and don’t curse in response ect

different testaments and mindsets

The law

“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The lords word

“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:2-5, 7-12‬ ‭

It’s important to make sure we’re listening to the right word and covenant because one of them is not like the other

“but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament;

which vail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:14-15‬ ‭

What I mean to say is there are the works of the law we find in Moses doctrine e.g. “ eye for an eye tooth for a tooth go ahead and divorce and remarry if your not happy “

and then there are the actions of faith we find in Christs doctrine “ turn the other cheek don’t take revenge forgive don’t get divorced unless there’s adultery but if you do don’t remarry “


Two doctrines are present in scripture

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

More nonsense. If you knew the Law of Moses, you would know that the "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" was relegated to judges that God set up in Israel and not for administration or retribution by private individuals. The "different mindset" is due to a different covenant; for the New Covenant would apply to far more people that just one chosen physical nation. Therefore, the New had some different rules for his new nation -- the Church. (Jesus was the new sheriff in town.) There are even rules governing Church discipline in the NT and you will not find the Lev 24 concept in those NT passages.

 

[Rufus]

You disagree about it being about Faith? When you think about Faith, who is the subject of that Faith? So, when I point out Paul's bookending of Romans with Faith-Obedience [in-to God], I'm focusing on man instead of God? Here are the bookends and one intermediary near the end:

ESV Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,​

​

ESV Romans 11:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient--​

​

ESV Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--​

My focus as a man in Christ in Spirit is how we are told to relate to our Perfect Heavenly Father and Perfect Lord Jesus Christ. IOW. I'm interested in both God and our relating to Him. If you think you see a focus, it's likely because I see Him and what He does in absolute perfection that we all can just accept while we focus on what He in perfection wants from His currently imperfect sons. IOW, we're the ones who need understanding and help, not Him, and it saddens me that we are not much, much better at being like Father & First-Born Brother like sons & siblings conformed to His likeness.

There's more to this, but this will do for now.

From what I gather from your post, you don't want to explain your view of foreknowledge or what the various views are or which one of those views you think is closest to yours. I don't blame you actually.

End of discussion? Probably best.

God is the Subject of Rom 8:298-30 -- not sinners, nor their faith. What's in view is God's sovereign PLAN of salvation, which does not depend on the counsel of sinners.

 

[Rufus]

I thought Spurgeon's devotional today is very appropriate for the discussions going on here today.

"Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."
Ephesians 1:11

Our belief in God's wisdom supposes and necessitates that He has a settled purpose and plan in the work of salvation. What would creation have been without His design? Is there a fish in the sea, or a fowl in the air, which was left to chance for its formation? Nay, in every bone, joint, and muscle, sinew, gland, and blood-vessel, you mark the presence of a God working everything according to the design of infinite wisdom. And shall God be present in creation, ruling over all, and not in grace? Shall the new creation have the fickle genius of free will to preside over it when divine counsel rules the old creation? Look at Providence! Who knoweth not that not a sparrow falleth to the ground without your Father? Even the hairs of your head are all numbered. God weighs the mountains of our grief in scales, and the hills of our tribulation in balances. And shall there be a God in providence and not in grace? Shall the shell be ordained by wisdom and the kernel be left to blind chance. No; He knows the end from the beginning. He sees in its appointed place, not merely the corner-stone which He has laid in fair colours, in the blood of His dear Son, but He beholds in their ordained position each of the chosen stones taken out of the quarry of nature, and polished by His grace; He sees the whole from corner to cornice, from base to roof, from foundation to pinnacle. He hath in His mind a clear knowledge of every stone which shall be laid in its prepared space, and how vast the edifice shall be, and when the top-stone shall be brought forth with shoutings of "Grace! Grace! unto it." At the last it shall be clearly seen that in every chosen vessel of mercy, Jehovah did as He willed with His own; and that in every part of the work of grace He accomplished His purpose, and glorified His own name.

 

[Kroogz]

It's your side that doesn't believe the Spirit moves until after belief. I believe He is working in conjunction with the word of God to produce the faith that leads to belief.

I just quoted a verse that says He unequivocally moves before belief.

God ALWAYS makes the first move.......It's just not salvation.

The Spirit moves.....Man can choose for or against.

John 16~~
And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;
2 Cor 6:2
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

John 3:16
Acts 16:31

The games are old.

Your above quote should read:

" It's your side that believes the Spirit SAVES the moment one believes." The Spirit is ALWAYS moving to influence and convince unbelievers.

 

[Rufus]

I just quoted a verse that says He unequivocally moves before belief.

God ALWAYS makes the first move.......It's just not salvation.

The Spirit moves.....Man can choose for or against.

John 16~~
And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;
2 Cor 6:2
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

John 3:16
Acts 16:31

The games are old.

Your above quote should read:

" It's your side that believes the Spirit SAVES the moment one believes." The Spirit is ALWAYS moving to influence and convince unbelievers.

And the Holy Spirit has a 100% success rate with every heart which He circumcises and instills into the Fear of the Lord prior to any unbeliever coming to faith.

 

[Magenta]

And the Holy Spirit has a 100% success rate with every heart which He circumcises and instills into the Fear of the Lord prior to any unbeliever coming to faith.

Scripture says all given to Jesus by God will come. I don't see where it says we choose to or can decide not to...