Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

right ... the reason 1 Cor 1:18 is improperly folded into 1 Cor 2:14 is because of the words "for they are foolishness unto him" and the word "foolishness" is repeated in 1 Cor 1:18, 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Cor 1:23 ... but the words "neither can he know them" in 1 Cor 2:14 are ignored ... those words do not appear in 1 Cor 1:18, 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Cor 1:23.

and if we read what is written in 1 Cor 1 concerning the foolishness of preaching the gospel, 1 Cor 1:23 makes clear that only the Greeks considered the preaching of the cross as foolishness.

to the Jews the preaching of the cross was a stumblingblock because they require a sign (1 Cor 1:22) ...

to the Greeks it was foolishness because they seek man's wisdom (the wisdom of words of 1 Cor 1:17; and the wisdom of the wise of 1 Cor 1:19)

Clearly, the Jews understood and rejected – they wanted the Messiah Who has yet to come ... they were not interested in the Messiah Who came as the Lamb of God ... they want the conquering King. ... and some of them are still waiting, while other Jews have embraced the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah .

The Greeks understood and rejected – in Acts 17 they mocked Paul when they heard of the resurrection of the dead (Acts 17:32). Scripture does not say they do not understand ... they understand and mockingly believe the gospel is foolishness.
.

For some reason 1 Corinthians 2:12 has been deleted from the super determinist Bible.
This verse of course resolves the super-determinist blather about 1 Corinthians 2:14, which is why vs. 12 has been ignored.

This has been brought up many many times on this thread already. Evidently they could care less.

 

[sawdust]

If all the rebellious angles are not found in heaven how did saten walk right in? In the story of Job. In revaluations it states and the dragon fought with Micheal with his angles and neither was thier place found in heaven any more. So fallen angles still have access to heaven. Just as fallen men still exist on earth. Revalatiins 12-7 through 9 directly state that. The devil or Satan which deceived the whole world he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him.

Where do you get this idea they were cast out when man was cast out? I am curious why you even think this. Do you think the war in heaven amd revaluations has already happened? That is the only way you could possibly come to that conclusion.

I think you might be misunderstanding what @Rufus is saying. He is saying Satan was cast out of heaven when Christ was victorious on the Cross much like Adam was cast out of the Garden. He is not saying they occurred at the same time.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;

It is my understanding the Cross event saw Satan finally evicted from God's (third) heaven so he is now constrained to space/time. I believe in those last seven years he will be constrained even further to the Earth only (which includes it's atmosphere).

Prior to the Cross Satan had access to heaven as you noted in the story of Job.

 

[Magenta]

Isin that pelagian guy the one Calvin had burned at the stake for thinking differently than him?

Calvin was involved in the execution of Michael Servetus, a Spanish theologian and physician, for his
rejection of the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, as well as his views on infant baptism.

Pelagian heretics reject what the Bible says about the estate of fallen man as a result of Adam's sin.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18> Nothing good lives in my flesh.

 

[Kroogz]

Why don't your posts ever actually deal with what I am actually talking about? You have a unique way of saying things people already know and assume you are teaching.

That is a post that deals with what you were talking about. But the natural/calvie man can't discern it.
I have never seen a post from you or any of the other calvies to indicate that you know any of these truths.

 

[Cameron143]

God is responsible for the flesh in Jesus' birth, not ours.

Hebrews 10:5
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings thou hast not desired, but a body hast thou prepared for me;

It matters to me what words you use as it becomes very hard to understand your meaning when you simply throw words out without definition expecting others to understand.

Your answer still fails to address the issue of who is responsible for the corruption which is what I am trying to get at. If God creates the immaterial part then He is responsible if that is where the corruption is and you are saying it is there. Can you explain how that is possible please?

Also based on what you said above you now have God creating both the immaterial and the material parts of man. Does He really create corruption?

Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

That is a post that deals with what you were talking about. But the natural/calvie man can't discern it.
I have never seen a post from you or any of the other calvies to indicate that you know any of these truths.

Perhaps I'm not the one with the discernment problem.

 

[Genez]

Super-determinist doomers. Quite a horrible existence if you ask me.

Perhaps, they think in that way because they were shamed to realize how much they hated the idea of Jesus before they were saved.
The guilt that way of thinking caused them to seek a way for it to be resolved.
Solution? The concept of utter total depravity let's them off the hook, 'guilt free.'

Because of how much they hated God?
To be thinking man is totally and utterly depraved as they do?
Gives them a sense of relief to think, since man is totally depraved, how they felt was naturally expected.

In that way? They found relief knowing how much they hated Jesus and the notion of God.

Might as well say it.

 

[Genez]

Why don't your posts ever actually deal with what I am actually talking about? You have a unique way of saying things people already know and assume you are teaching.

Because you appeared to be arguing against this post! https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5543977

And you had also said that the soul was utterly corrupt, here!

The total part of total depravity simply means entire. That is, in the fall, every aspect of man was corrupted, and not that every facet of man was utterly corrupted.

That was what I was addressing, sir!

 

[Kroogz]

Pelagian heretics reject what the Bible says about the estate of fallen man as a result of Adam's sin.
.

Calvie heretics reject what the Lord Jesus Christ did about the estate of fallen man.

Calvies worship Adams sin. And Give little or no credence to the Insurmountable results of the works Of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Kroogz]

Perhaps, they think in that way because they were shamed to realize how much they hated the idea of Jesus before they were saved.
The guilt that way of thinking caused them to seek a way for it to be resolved.
Solution? The concept of utter total depravity let's them off the hook, 'guilt free.'

Because of how much they hated God?
To be thinking man is totally and utterly depraved as they do?
Gives them a sense of relief to think, since man is totally depraved, how they felt was naturally expected.

In that way? They found relief knowing how much they hated Jesus and the notion of God.

Might as well say it.

Some sarcasm?

But they cannot deny what you have said, considering their Debbie Downer theology.

 

[Genez]

So man has two wills: A will of the "flesh" and a will of the soul? That kinda explains all the doublespeak that abounds with FWers around here.

Not what it means.

The impulses of of the flesh over an unchecked soul will go the way of a person's flesh.
The soul may have the will not to follow the impulses, but can't stop having those impulses when there is no power offered (grace) to resist the flesh.

 

[Cameron143]

Because you appeared to be arguing against this post! https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5543977

And you had also said that the soul was utterly corrupt, here!



That was what I was addressing, sir!

No I didn't. I never said anything was utterly corrupt. In fact, I said it doesn't mean different aspects of man were utterly corrupt. And you made a claim that the soul of man wasn't corrupted. But it's easy to show that the heart and mind of man was corrupted. In fact, these are the very things that are dealt with in salvation, according to Acts 2:37, that leads to Acts 2:38.

 

[Jackson129]

Calvin was involved in the execution of Michael Servetus, a Spanish theologian and physician, for his
rejection of the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, as well as his views on infant baptism.

Pelagian heretics reject what the Bible says about the estate of fallen man as a result of Adam's sin.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18> Nothing good lives in my flesh.

Well I mean either way if I told the governor to arrest Rufus or you for thinking differently than me, and tell him to slowly roast you over a fire I'd be guilty of murder. Thats how I see it. Yeah i know things were done differnt back then dosent make it any less murderous. If you are so zealous for God you got to jump on the roasting people alive bandwagon im not gonna give much of anything you say about a loving forgiving God much of any thought. He could of just let the situation play out and the outcome would have been no differnt. But he just couldn't let himself do that. Speaks to who he was as a human being.

 

[Magenta]

Well I mean either way if I told the governor to arrest Rufus or you for thinking differently than me, and tell him to slowly roast you over a fire I'd be guilty of murder. Thats how I see it. Yeah i know things were done differnt back then dosent make it any less murderous. If you are so zealous for God you got to jump on the roasting people alive bandwagon im not gonna give much of anything you say about a loving forgiving God much of any thought. He could of just let the situation play out and the outcome would have been no differnt. But he just couldn't let himself do that. Speaks to who he was as a human being.

What in the world are you going on about???

 

[Jackson129]

What in the world are you going on about???

Calvin jumping on the burn people at the stake bandwagon.

 

[Kroogz]

What in the world are you going on about??? You have just become another false accuser.

You really should "bow out" if you can't understand.

You are a one trick pony. It's not hard to see your one trick...........But everyone is a false accuser.

 

[Magenta]

Calvin jumping on the burn people at the stake bandwagon.

Got nothing to do with me. I simply answered your question.. What about Pelagian heretics?

 

[Genez]

No I didn't. I never said anything was utterly corrupt. In fact, I said it doesn't mean different aspects of man were utterly corrupt. And you made a claim that the soul of man wasn't corrupted. But it's easy to show that the heart and mind of man was corrupted. In fact, these are the very things that are dealt with in salvation, according to Acts 2:37, that leads to Acts 2:38.

Maybe I misunderstood.
What did this mean then?

The total part of total depravity simply means entire. That is, in the fall, every aspect of man was corrupted, and not that every facet of man was utterly corrupted.

 

[sawdust]

Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.

What discussion?

I was trying to understand what is in your head. Do you not know or do you not want to tell me? Either way I'm fine with it. Not everyone wants to be understood.

Grace and peace.

 

[Jackson129]

Got nothing to do with me. I simply answered your question.. What about Pelagian heretics?

And I was just stating how I feel about people slow burning someone at the stake for thinking differently than them.