Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

Agreed, and: "Fools assume there is no God and thus no one who is a fool seeks God
(but some are not totally depraved/foolish", such as the writer of the Psalms).

The fool who ignores all evidences of God ... through creation which is a vast array of God's marvelous handiwork ... as well as his conscience (the work of the law written in the heart of all mankind – Rom 2:15) ... as well as God's people who speak God's Word in the highways and byways of life.

God reaches out to mankind for the very reason explained in the psalm ... there are none that seek God. So God, in His lovingkindness and mercy, reaches out to mankind through His people who then preach the gospel.
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[reneweddaybyday]

THAT is the real reason why the sanctification is so slow, because WE are at fault, not God.

yep ... what is really interesting to me is that if/when we see a baby or a child who is not physically or mentally developing appropriately, we are concerned and take the baby to the doctor, follow up with the recommendations of the doctor ... but as far as spiritual development ??? ... sad that believers can remain in spiritual infancy feeding on the milk of the Word (which, hey, I'm glad there's some nourishment going on) ... or the carnal christian who just caves in to the desires of the flesh ... what's up with that?

There are many verses which talk about maturing to adulthood and being good stewards over the things God entrusts to us ... no longer children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:15).

Faith is not works Romans 4 says

yep ...
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[Jackson129]

Will sinners on Judgment Day have an excuse to offer God for their personal sins?

No because he gave them a way out.

 

[cv5]

The fool who ignores all evidences of God ... through creation which is a vast array of God's marvelous handiwork ... as well as his conscience (the work of the law written in the heart of all mankind – Rom 2:15) ... as well as God's people who speak God's Word in the highways and byways of life.

God reaches out to mankind for the very reason explained in the psalm ... there are none that seek God. So God, in His lovingkindness and mercy, reaches out to mankind through His people who then preach the gospel.
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Indeed.
No free-willer is arguing that God is NOT the First mover, the Initiator, the Caller, the Inviter to the wedding, the Bridegroom who is doing the wooing.

Of course He is. He is always first. He is also last.

But we created beings are "called"..........to respond. We either "receive" or do not "receive".
Extensive convoluted commentary is not required for something a child can so easily understand.

 

[cv5]

Will sinners on Judgment Day have an excuse to offer God for their personal sins?

You sure are full of questions fella. Shades of @Cameron143

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Men in the OT were called righteous even as sinners. They were not being called to believe the gospel.
They had direct experience with God which some here call God being unfair.

I see it a little differently than you do ...

Gen 3:15 – this was the promise Adam and Eve believed and taught their descendants. Also, have you ever considered the fact that God placed the lights in the heavens for signs and for seasons and for days and for years (Gen 1:14-18). This is more than just fall, winter, spring, summer. I believe the truth of the gospel was written in the heavens and has been corrupted by satan ... but I believe the parents would take their children out and "read" to them from the night sky ... teach them great truths which we have long since forgotten (such a tragedy).

Gen 15; Gen 17; Gen 22 – God's promises to Abraham and God's provision of the ram in place of Isaac.

Exodus - Deuteronomy – God's establishment of the Passover and the sacrificial offerings and the law ... all of which point to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The above is just a sampling ... and this is why I keep saying the gospel was never hid by God and has been revealed in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation ... so, so cool!!!
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[reneweddaybyday]

I keep hearing bad trees cannot bring forth good fruit. Completely agree. But the fruits of repentance start the second after you repent not before. So how do you know you need to repent if your heart is still wicked?

God reaches out to us through faithful believers. It pleases God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor 1:21).

Creation is also a manner in which God reveals Himself ... the one who looks at creation and considers the fact that there is a Designer behind all he or she sees ... may seek God out at a church and, hopefully the church is a godly church which teaches the truth of the Gospel as well as Scripture itself.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Indeed.
No free-willer is arguing that God is NOT the First mover, the Initiator, the Caller, the Inviter to the wedding, the Bridegroom who is doing the wooing.

Of course He is. He is always first. He is also last.

But we created beings are "called"..........to respond. We either "receive" or do not "receive".
Extensive convoluted commentary is not required for something a child can so easily understand.

right ... it just astounds me that there are claims being made about who said "what" ... when "what" was never said and what has been said is ignored and/or not acknowledged so the claims go on and on and on ... ad nauseam ...
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[sawdust]

Show me on this doll where the TULIP hurt you.

On the LIP

 

[sawdust]

So, God is like a village idiot who just goes through the offering motions even though he knew the outcomes in eternity? And this makes sense to you?

And what were the sinless angels saved FROM before they rebelled? Sin-free Adam, too, was in the presence of God in the Garden until he rebelled, so what is your point?

Why do the angels not have a salvation plan like men is a thread in itself. Off the top of my head I can think of two reasons. They don't have a sin nature in their flesh (they have no flesh) and they were never born into darkness like men are.

 

[Genez]

Why do the angels not have a salvation plan like men is a thread in itself. Off the top of my head I can think of two reasons. They don't have a sin nature in their flesh (they have no flesh) and they were never born into darkness like men are.

Even fallen angels are not spiritually dead.
They can still perceive spiritual things!

Looks like when they fell God had them experience physical death.
No longer able to materialize in the material world.
Just the reversal of mankind.

 

[Rufus]

No because he gave them a way out.

So...you seem to be saying that God is indebted to the sinner? He owes them a "way out" of THEIR sin? On what judicial basis does He owe them? Or what have sinners given to God that he needs to repay them (Rom 11:35)!? Is God the cause of their sin? Or....

Job 41:11
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
NIV

Or....

Matt 20:15
15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
NIV

 

[Genez]

So...you seem to be saying that God is indebted to the sinner? He owes them a "way out" of THEIR sin? On what judicial basis does He owe them? Or what have sinners given to God that he needs to repay them (Rom 11:35)!? Is God the cause of their sin?

God does not owe them anything.

He simply arranges it so that He does not dominate and oppress the person's volition.

Why? God wants out choices to be our own.

 

[lrs68]

So...you seem to be saying that God is indebted to the sinner? He owes them a "way out" of THEIR sin? On what judicial basis does He owe them? Or what have sinners given to God that he needs to repay them (Rom 11:35)!? Is God the cause of their sin? Or....

Job 41:11
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
NIV

Or....

Matt 20:15
15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
NIV

God is not a respector of people.

If He died for one person who will believe He died for the one who reject Him.

 

[BillyBob]

Wanna rethink that?

Seems as though you are the one who needs to re-think his position!
Every time a FW'er hears the word all or world, they assume that God is speaking of the entire human race, [every single person on the planet]. Of coarse, we know that this is untrue, otherwise you would never see a verse such as Romans 9:13 - As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
God does not share his love, mercy and grace equally among all men, even though you seem to believe that this is unfair. He has a [chosen people], [a remnant], [His elect], that He calls His own.

 

[lrs68]

Seems as though you are the one who needs to re-think his position!
Every time a FW'er hears the word all or world, they assume that God is speaking of the entire human race, [every single person on the planet]. Of coarse, we know that this is untrue, otherwise you would never see a verse such as Romans 9:13 - As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
God does not share his love, mercy and grace equally among all men, even though you seem to believe that this is unfair. He has a [chosen people], [a remnant], [His elect], that He calls His own.

Do you think because the first born son always gets both the Birthright and the Blessing that had Esau loved and cherished his Birthright and Blessing instead of giving it away for a bowl of tiny beans that God would have loved Esau because the Birthright and Blessing would have changed Esaus name to Israel?

 

[BillyBob]

Do you think because the first born son always gets both the Birthright and the Blessing that had Esau loved and cherished his Birthright and Blessing instead of giving it away for a bowl of tiny beans that God would have loved Esau because the Birthright and Blessing would have changed Esaus name to Israel?

Don't think that had anything to do with it! He was hated before he was born.

 

[BillyBob]

There is no "robbing" of Gods Grace when we CHOSE Him and His Gift.

Seems that you have made a tiny step forward. Now you are admitting it is a gift and not something we achieve apart from God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Don't think that had anything to do with it! He was hated before he was born.

nope ... what God said about Esau before Esau was born:

In Romans 9, Paul spoke of the heaviness and continual sorrow concerning his kinsmen according to the flesh (Israelites) – Rom 9:1-4.

Rom 9:10-16 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

vs 11-12 – what God told Rebecca before the children were born is revealed in Genesis 25 – two nations are in thy womb ... and the elder shall serve the younger. God did not claim that He would love Jacob or hate Esau before Jacob and Esau were born.

vs 13 – the words Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated were not spoken by God before the children were born, nor were they spoken while Jacob and Esau were alive on the earth. The words were spoke in Malachi ... the last book in the Old Testament, well after many generations had sprung from Jacob and Esau.

From Pulpit Commentary:

"Malachi is not speaking of the predestination of the one brother and reprobation of the other; he is contrasting the histories of the two peoples represented by them … Both nations sinned; both are punished; but Israel by God’s free mercy was forgiven and restored, while Edom was left in the misery which it had brought upon itself by its own iniquity"​

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[cv5]

So...you seem to be saying that God is indebted to the sinner? He owes them a "way out" of THEIR sin? On what judicial basis does He owe them? Or what have sinners given to God that he needs to repay them (Rom 11:35)!? Is God the cause of their sin? Or....

Job 41:11
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
NIV

Or....

Matt 20:15
15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
NIV

"GAVE".......them a way out.

Accusations of indebtedness do not apply. But you did it anyway.