Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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By your free admission that man had choices to make, then we have nothing to
cover per OP. May be in some other time I may respond to your propose sub topic. 😊
Hey, if you want to think that being able to choose what colour of socks to wear has any bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, I don't know what to say to you aside from what Scripture ACTUALLY says. Man is a slave to sin. His heart is incurably wicked. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Man is blinded by the god of this world to the truth, a lover of darkness, refuses to come into the light, opposed to the spiritual things of God. The gospel message in his natural state is foolishness to him. Who believes foolishness? Oh, besides those who want to believe the colour of socks you wear has some bearing on this topic. Let's just stick with what Scripture says, okay? You got nothing.
 
God bless you bro.

Heres another one: The word monergism is actually never used in the Bible, atleast the word for synergy is:

View attachment 278195

The word is used about 13 times in its different forms. So working together does not mean keeping the law of Moses to be saved. It means God initiates, we respond and receive the atonement Jesus has provided for us.

Simple as that. All arguments about boasting are completely bogus and if anything it seems the calvinist crowd is the most cold, ruthless, pride and arrogant bunch within Christendom ive ever ran into. If you wanna witness this in the comfort of your home look up debates on this subject.
Wow "synergoi".....very cool 😎
 
I agree! If salvation is a gift by grace thru faith, then it must be received as a gift rather than earned.

We/believers TAKE HOLD of the gift.The calvies have yet to find a verse that says believing is "earning" the gift.

Acts 16:31.

All the calvies claim to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. They must have earned it also.

There is no earning or merit in faith.The OBJECT of a persons faith has all the merit.
 
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I learned that many here would rather erroneously assume to know what I believe, and then falsely accuse me of holding to things I do not believe at all, than find out what it is I actually do believe through discussions in good faith. And I found that more than a few revel in misrepresenting what I believe, and applaud others who do likewise, and then along come those too who say this does not happen at all, and others who refuse to acknowledge the truth of this matter in preference to making jokes about it. There are those filled with all kinds of wickedness and depravity, full of envy, murder, strife, and deceit, who despite being guilty of those and other faults such as being heartless and malicious liars, put themselves forward as teachers while claiming God is unfair and uttering other blasphemies. They are merciless slanderers, arrogant, and boastful. The truly weird thing about all this is they do all this at least in part because they hold so tenaciously to their false doctrine of free will, which is nowhere taught in the Bible, preferring to cling to man made traditions than accept what Scripture plainly teaches, which is that the natural man is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, hostile in his mind toward God, in need of the saving grace of God. You might think that these and a plethora of other verses that have multiple times been served up would help them loosen their grasp on their false doctrine, but alas, no, instead they claim such verses are taken out of context and do not apply to their idea of the natural man, who in their view, is good despite Jesus plainly stating otherwise. They also deceive themselves into thinking that not having a will that is free means people are robots, and/or not responsible for the choices they do make, when the reality is quite different from their vain imaginations, in that people make choices all the time, and this from their nature, which for the natural man, who is taken captive to the will of the devil while blinded by the god of this world, does not include coming to believe the gospel which is foolishness to him, for man in his natural state can neither receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed. Again these Scriptural truths simply get swept aside or completely twisted and/or ignored and simply rejected in favour of their free will doctrine, as they ascribe to the natural man what can only be said to be true of the spiritual man. Perhaps I shall never understand why any who say they are Christian would complain so bitterly against the sovereignty of God Who acts unilaterally out of His great everlasting love for us to sever our sin nature, circumcising our hearts so we may choose rightly and love Him in return.

ROFL More fake news

You have repeatedly misrepresented what others believe in this thread then accuse others of doing the same while lumping them all into a box of your making.

So sad. :cry:
 
Hey, if you want to think that being able to choose what colour of socks to wear has any bearing on the eternal fate of your soul,

calvies god~~I will give you freewill to choose what color socks you want to wear. But, by God, you can NEVER make a choice for or against your eternal life.

Acts 16:31.

Silly calvies, salvation is offered to ALL.
 
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A couple observations & questions:
  • Why do you see what sounds like a 2-step process of trust then faith in Eph1:12-13?
that is the sequence I see in those verses:

Ephesians 1:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

first trusted ... which translated from the Greek word proelpizō ... from pro = before and elpizō = hope. It is more than just wishful thinking. It is a confidence in something (Something) in which there is a future realization of fulfillment.


13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

We trusted after we heard the word of truth ... we believed after we trusted ... we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after we believed.

I have read commentaries wherein it is stated that the "who first trusted in Christ" refers to the Jewish believers ... the Jews hoped before the coming of Christ in His earthly ministry and I am not opposed to this understanding ... especially when contrasting the "we" of vs 11 to the "ye" of vs 12.

However, I have also considered how we came to be born again and I think of the times someone heard the gospel before he or she actually believed the gospel. How many of us believed the gospel the first time we heard it? The first time we hear the gospel we might consider it ... then the next time, we think about it a little more ... the next time we start to hope ... the next time ... the next time ... until that trust (hope) gives way to belief ... at which point God increases that faith and births the new creation within.

Each and every time we believe the truth, God brings increase and strengthens our faith ... that is what I believe concerning faith. I do not understand why that is so far-fetched. We can increase our knowledge or intellect ... we can increase our physical strength ... we can increase whatever God-given talents we have been blessed with (singing, athletic ability, artistic ability, etc., etc.). If we want to increase faith, go to God's Word, read it, study it (Ezra 7:10; Acts 17:11; Col 3:16; 2 Tim 2:15), consume it (Job 23:12; Psalm 119:103; Jer 15:16), breathe it ... believe it ... God will bring increase.

When we increase our knowledge ... or our physical strength ... or our artistic abilities ... is that us increasing ourselves? ... or is that increasing something God designed when He created, formed, made mankind? Those who are blessed with inherent abilities should thank God above ... and a lot of folks who are recipients of certain awards thank God first and foremost for the talents He has blessed them with ... why is it that faith absolutely must not be one of those inherent abilities ??? ... just sayin'




studier said:
  • 2Thes2:11-12 sounds to me like or similar to the hardening of the heart process in different words. Those who did not believe the truth but/rather were well-pleased with unrighteousness - God will send them operative power for wandering/error so they believe the lie.


right ... energeia planē




studier said:
    • God gave them the opportunities to believe the truth 2Thess2:11 - to welcome the love for truth that results in their salvation Thess2:10 > they did neither > God will thus send the energeia (which is basically just what it sounds like in English) to assist their unbelief.
    • I agree with what you say about their having the ability to believe error (also truth). They would not believe so God at some point enhances the energy of the deceit just for them.

the verse states that God sends strong delusion ... the verse does not not state that God sends faith so they believe the lie.

They believe the lie because they have faith to believe ... that's my point.
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I agree and to add to what you are saying Cain had little knowledge of the Lord, Paul had the Torah and the Prophets.
are you sure about that? Cain was the son of Adam and Eve ... both Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden ... we know Adam had a close relationship with His Father as the Father brought all creatures to Adam who named them (Gen 2:19) ... and we know God spoke directly to both Adam and Eve and both Adam and Eve spoke to God directly.

Adam and Eve taught their children ... Cain brought his offering to God ... when God spoke to Cain, Cain didn't ask "who are You?" ... Cain rejected God's Word, killed his brother, talked to God after that, pled with God concerning the consequence of his sinful behavior (Gen 4:6-16) ... Cain's actions actually point to the fact that he was very religious ... he chose his own way over that which God prescribed, which, in a nutshell, is man made religion ... men following men results in divisions and contentions (1 Cor 1:10-11) and carnality (1 Cor 3:1-4).
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The Blind Man From Birth and Jesus

This is a fascinating and extremely enlightening narrative on multiple levels. I'm sure an entire book could be written on these two miracles alone in John 9, most especially because Jesus himself merges the spiritual into the physical realm. Many don't see two miracles occuring in this chapter, but there are. Anyone who has eyes to see can see them both. So, I'll briefly provide an outline of this narrative with minimum commentary and sync it with the "chain of salvation" passage in Rom 8:28-30, as I did a few weeks ago with the Exodus narrative.

Jn 9:3
God [fore]knew this blind man in eternity. And He predestined the man's blindness for His own glory. And Jesus was obviously doing his Father's will (Jn 5:30) by choosing this man out of a large crowd of other sick, disabled people He could have healed (but passed over) who routinely gathered in the temple.

Jn 9:6
God effectually called (Rom 8:29-30) this physically and spiritually lost blind man through Jesus in order to execute His eternal purpose (Rom 8:28.) Therefore, this man was given to Jesus by the Father in order to save him from his blindness (Jn 6:39). For this reason Jesus sought this particular lost man out (Lk 19:10) to rescue him from his physical and ultimately from his spiritual darkness and lostness.

Jn 9:7a
Jesus, the embodiment of the elect's Sanctification (1Cor 1:30) healed the blind man in three stages which depicts the divine call being executed through the "birthing" process of Sanctification (2Thes 2:13; 1Pet 1:2).

Jn 9:7b
Jesus' call to the blind man was effectual since the man obeyed his command to wash the mud off his eyes in the Pool of Siloam at which point he was rescued from his physically dark world.

Jn 9:8-34
The blind man faithfully and boldly bore witness to Jesus' power to everyone who questioned him which is also a testimony to the efficacy of God's call upon his life.

Jn 9:35, 37
But Jesus, in faithfully executing his God-appointed role as the Good Shepherd to his Father's elect sheep(Jn 10), sought the man out a second time to perform, yet, another infinitely more significant life changing miracle -- a miracle that would this time give him spiritual sightedness into the identity of Israel's long awaited Messiah. Jesus returned to him to give him the gift of the [Light of] Life (Jn 5:21),to reveal the Father to him (Mat 11:27) and to rescue him from spiritual darkness (Col 1:13).

Jn 9:38
Upon hearing Jesus' words, the man fell prostate to the ground in love, faith, adoration and worship for his Messiah whom he has now seen physically and spiritually -- spiritually because he was born from above which is the only way one can truly see (understand) the kingdom of heaven (Jn 3:5). At this point, God justified this man (Rom 8:29) who was formerly steeped in darkness (Eph 5:8; 2Cor 4:4)) and never knew where he was going in more ways than one (1Jn 2:11). Talk about being twice LOST (dead, cf. Jude 12)!

Jn 9:39-41
Jesus makes the analogy between physical and spiritual blindness since it is his power that can cure both.

In summary, John 9 teaches many spiritual lessons. The only difference between the blind man at birth and the vast majority of the rest of humanity is that most of us come into this world physically sighted, thanks to God's grace. But like the blind man at birth, we all come into this world born spiritually blind. No exceptions! But FWers don't really believe this for a nanosecond. Man is NOT helpless -- certainly not helplessly blind! It only takes a natural act of man's "freewill" to see (understand) Christ, his kingdom and his gospel. So, listen to what the Savior said who allegedly desires that all mankind w/o exception be saved:

John 9:39
39 Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see
and those who see will become blind."
NIV

Wow! Really? Jesus really said this? His Gospel truly does divide the sons of men, doesn't it? And look what he told the self-righteous Pharisees in this regard:

John 9:40-41
40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"


41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt [sin] remains.
NIV

No self-respecting FWer would ever confess that he came into this world as blind as a bat, spiritually. (Most FWers share the mindset of the self-deceived Pharisees!) Man's heart, mind and soul are not Darkness itself (Eph 5:8), even though man is naturally deeply in love with his Darkness (Jn 3:19)! When Adam fell, he just bruised his knee some, then got up, brushed himself off and went on his merry way whistling a merry tune. His fall was just a slight bump in the Road to the City of God.
 
With some more discussion, I probably would also find [more] agreement with @sawdust and with @Roughsoul1991 who may even have identified the importance of the object/content and thus and thereby attached "Faith" as the more operative word.

I have not stated it in terms of "object" directly but have always maintained that faith comes from the word ergo, the object of faith is Christ and Christ alone. The word is "alive and active" Heb.4:12 It's the word in the believer that effects God's will unto salvation and sanctification.

If you believe something, it might sound right, but if it is not true, your will not grow, you will not overcome. It is how believers can grieve and quench the Spirit hence, fall from grace, walking after the flesh instead. They have not lost their salvation (become spiritually dead again) but they have lost their momentum to overcome which, is our sanctification, our growing to the full stature of Jesus Christ.

This is why I describe believing and faith as being different, as evidenced by the disagreements amongst believers. It is obvious we can believe different things yet all have faith.

Be it unto you according to your faith Matt.9:29 Each of us here at least have the measure of faith that comes from the Gospel hence, we are saved. How much that faith grows throughout our walk with the Lord? Well, we will see when when we are evaluated, then the wood, hay and stubble will be burned away and we are left only with faith. :)
 
are you sure about that? Cain was the son of Adam and Eve ... both Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden ... we know Adam had a close relationship with His Father as the Father brought all creatures to Adam who named them (Gen 2:19) ... and we know God spoke directly to both Adam and Eve and both Adam and Eve spoke to God directly.

Adam and Eve taught their children ... Cain brought his offering to God ... when God spoke to Cain, Cain didn't ask "who are You?" ... Cain rejected God's Word, killed his brother, talked to God after that, pled with God concerning the consequence of his sinful behavior (Gen 4:6-16) ... Cain's actions actually point to the fact that he was very religious ... he chose his own way over that which God prescribed, which, in a nutshell, is man made religion ... men following men results in divisions and contentions (1 Cor 1:10-11) and carnality (1 Cor 3:1-4).
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Where in scripture does it say that Eve had empirical evidence of God's existence, as Adam did?
 
are you sure about that? Cain was the son of Adam and Eve ... both Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden ... we know Adam had a close relationship with His Father as the Father brought all creatures to Adam who named them (Gen 2:19) ... and we know God spoke directly to both Adam and Eve and both Adam and Eve spoke to God directly.

Adam and Eve taught their children ... Cain brought his offering to God ... when God spoke to Cain, Cain didn't ask "who are You?" ... Cain rejected God's Word, killed his brother, talked to God after that, pled with God concerning the consequence of his sinful behavior (Gen 4:6-16) ... Cain's actions actually point to the fact that he was very religious ... he chose his own way over that which God prescribed, which, in a nutshell, is man made religion ... men following men results in divisions and contentions (1 Cor 1:10-11) and carnality (1 Cor 3:1-4).
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Do you believe the revelation of God has been unfolding? The Church was a mystery until Pentecost according to Paul. I don't deny Adam walked with the Lord but I doubt the Lord unfolded all His plans and way to Adam. At the least, I highly doubt Adam worked out the Saviour would be crucified from being told Gen.3:15

The fact you are quoting Corinthians suggests to me there was a whole lot unknown to Adam that is now known to us.
 
After reading 22 Tanakh Books [39 English Old Testament Books] and 27 New Testament Books I have yet to find ONE EXAMPLE of God saying I saved you and you had no choice about it.

So how is there a doctrine that makes this claim?

What input did Eve have unto her reconciliation to God? Or what input did Issac and Jacob have when God in eternity decreed their participation in the Abrahamic Covenant?
 
No self-respecting FWer would ever confess that he came into this world as blind as a bat, spiritually. (Most FWers share the mindset of the self-deceived Pharisees!) Man's heart, mind and soul are not Darkness itself (Eph 5:8), even though man is naturally deeply in love with his Darkness (Jn 3:19)! When Adam fell, he just bruised his knee some, then got up, brushed himself off and went on his merry way whistling a merry tune. His fall was just a slight bump in the Road to the City of God.
The free will claim is that man is born with everything he needs to decide to believe, despite everything said to the contrary in Scripture.

Also, the giving of sight to the blind-from-birth is not something that had ever been done before.

John 9:32 Never before has anyone heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind.

Jesus said He came to give sight to the blind...

2-Corinthians-4-4.png

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
 
Where in scripture does it say that Eve had empirical evidence of God's existence, as Adam did?

Gen.3:8
And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
 
What input did Eve have unto her reconciliation to God? Or what input did Issac and Jacob have when God in eternity decreed their participation in the Abrahamic Covenant?

She accepted the clothing of skins the Lord gave them. She could have thrown them away and kept to her leaves. She didn't.
 
We/believers TAKE HOLD of the gift.The calvies have yet to find a verse that says believing is "earning" the gift.

Acts 16:31.

All the calvies claim to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. They must have earned it also.

There is no earning or merit in faith.The OBJECT of a persons faith has all the merit.

As usual, you miss-state what was posted! Yes, you must TAKE HOLD of the gift, yes you must BELIEVE and TRUST in God. However, the ability to do these things are all part of the gift that you receive by God's grace. See: Eph 2:1-9. God does it ALL! He leaves nothing to chance!
But you feel the need to rob Him of the mercy and grace that He pours out on all His elect!
 
But you feel the need to rob Him of the mercy and grace that He pours out on all His elect!

Listen close:

There is no "robbing" of Gods Grace when we CHOSE Him and His Gift.

Show me a verse that says we can BOAST in our belief of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You believe, I believe. Why is your belief non-meritorious and my belief robs God of His Grace?
 
As usual, you miss-state what was posted! Yes, you must TAKE HOLD of the gift, yes you must BELIEVE and TRUST in God. However, the ability to do these things are all part of the gift that you receive by God's grace. See: Eph 2:1-9. God does it ALL! He leaves nothing to chance!
But you feel the need to rob Him of the mercy and grace that He pours out on all His elect!
FWers choose to misrepresent. Maybe they think it is just an oopsie?

https://biblehub.com/john/9-32.htm

There are some great cross referenced verses concerning Jesus opening the eyes of the blind..:D
 
Do you believe the revelation of God has been unfolding? The Church was a mystery until Pentecost according to Paul. I don't deny Adam walked with the Lord but I doubt the Lord unfolded all His plans and way to Adam. At the least, I highly doubt Adam worked out the Saviour would be crucified from being told Gen.3:15

The fact you are quoting Corinthians suggests to me there was a whole lot unknown to Adam that is now known to us.

I have a question for you, sir: How many seeds do you see in Gen 3:15?
 
FWers choose to misrepresent. Maybe they think it is just an oopsie?

https://biblehub.com/john/9-32.htm

There are some great paralel verse concerning Jesus opening the eyes of the blind.
Isaiah 40:5
Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

Get with the TRUE program Sis. Quit focusing on the problems of man. God resolved our problems.
 
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