Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

Jesus' call to the blind man was effectual since the man obeyed his command to wash the mud off his eyes in the Pool of Siloam at which point he was rescued from his physically dark world

Just glancing through this interpretive verse skipping narrative and so far this kind of stood out. Sounds synergistic.

The man had to wash his own eyes before he was rescued/saved?

Wouldn't the monergistic version be that Jesus just walked up and washed/cleansed him?

 

[Magenta]

John 3 v 20-21 ~ Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.

 

[studier]

But like the blind man at birth, we all come into this world born spiritually blind. No exceptions! But FWers don't really believe this for a nanosecond.

Actually, in watching infants and very young children one of my favored observations and remarks is, no content, as they crawl or stumble around and make odd noises.

Then comes some teaching and training and observations and reasoning then accountability for choices made.

Spiritual blindness is similar to no content. But God has provided content, substantial and powerful content, along with the vocabulary that conveys it and makes it understandable.

You do seem to enjoy making things up to make false allegations against others.

 

[Genez]

Because you believe that your volition is efficacious and, therefore, the primary cause to your faith which contradicts scripture.

Our volition was made to be enabled to be free and to be efficacious by what?

By God's enabling power of Grace!

Grace is real power. Not simply an attitude of God towards us.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Cor 12:9a

The missing key to what you think is that grace is real power that God applies to us where we are too weak for effectual action.
When the grace is applied, then a choice made while under the grace to freely choose makes one accountable for what they choose.
For, even if someone is enabled by grace?

That grace does not make them unable to freely reject.
Grace makes their soul free to choose as it wishes, without the depravity of the flesh wishing to rule.

 

[Rufus]

"we know God spoke directly to both Adam and Eve and both Adam and Eve spoke to God directly" ... do you agree or disagree?

"Spoke directly to both" before or after the fall?




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[Rufus]

Actually, in watching infants and very young children one of my favored observations and remarks is, no content, as they crawl or stumble around and make odd noises.

Then comes some teaching and training and observations and reasoning then accountability for choices made.

Spiritual blindness is similar to no content. But God has provided content, substantial and powerful content, along with the vocabulary that conveys it and makes it understandable.

You do seem to enjoy making things up to make false allegations against others.

Stay focused! I'm not talking about nurturing. I'm talking about human nature. Do you know the difference between the two?

Scripture tells us that man is DARKNESS itself and that man naturally loves the Darkness. Since Jesus is the one and only Light of the world... and by extension his disciples as well by virtue of the indwelling Spirit, then what does this tell us about rest of mankind? Do the sons and daughters in Adam come into this world as lights or as dark tombs of darkness?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you believe the revelation of God has been unfolding? The Church was a mystery until Pentecost according to Paul. I don't deny Adam walked with the Lord but I doubt the Lord unfolded all His plans and way to Adam. At the least, I highly doubt Adam worked out the Saviour would be crucified from being told Gen.3:15

The fact you are quoting Corinthians suggests to me there was a whole lot unknown to Adam that is now known to us.

ok ... I see that in your statement "Cain had little knowledge of the Lord" you did not mean Cain did not know the Lord ... and, yes, I agree there is so much in Scripture that reveals God's manifold wisdom ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

Everyone comes into this world blind because all come into it as unbelievers. God reveals himself to his elect AFTER He performs his creation-type miracle (2Cor 4:6).

God reveals the gospel of Christ to the natural man ... belief in the gospel of Christ is the first step in the life of the believer and the gospel of Christ is revealed in Scripture from the days of Adam and Eve ... to our current day ... and into the future ...

Point is, Rufus, God never hid the gospel.

God, however, tells us there was something hid in Him from the foundation of the world until He revealed it to Paul. Some folks fold the gospel of Christ into this wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:7) ... which is error.

And instead of studying Scripture in an effort to rightly divide what is written or asking me and/or others what the heck we're talking about ... some just ridicule, deride, put blinders on concerning what God has written ... some posting in this thread (and other threads concerning this issue) behave in this manner toward fellow believers ... these things ought not so to be ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

"Each and every time we believe the truth, God brings increase and strengthens our faith ..."

A careful study of the capital "A" Apostles will yield this very phenomenon. It was a "process of faith" so to speak. In fact John 15 and the dialogue with Peter bears this out. If you actually understand what is going on here that is.

[Jhn 21:15 NKJV] 15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, [son] of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."

yes ... I recently completed a study on the John 21 dialogue between Peter and the Lord Jesus Christ ... very refreshing. I'm going to have to take you up on the study of the capital "A" Apostles.
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[reneweddaybyday]

As a carpenter, I see the pile lumber, and it's NOTHING but firewood to the untrained eye. But if we study the prints and plans, the "firewood" has a purpose.

I work in real estate development and it's so interesting to me to see the vision someone has in the purchase of vacant land ... I see dirt and overgrown weeds ... the developer sees residential and commercial opportunities ... development for the common good of the community ...
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[studier]

I have not stated it in terms of "object" directly but have always maintained that faith comes from the word ergo, the object of faith is Christ and Christ alone. The word is "alive and active" Heb.4:12 It's the word in the believer that effects God's will unto salvation and sanctification.

If you believe something, it might sound right, but if it is not true, your will not grow, you will not overcome. It is how believers can grieve and quench the Spirit hence, fall from grace, walking after the flesh instead. They have not lost their salvation (become spiritually dead again) but they have lost their momentum to overcome which, is our sanctification, our growing to the full stature of Jesus Christ.

This is why I describe believing and faith as being different, as evidenced by the disagreements amongst believers. It is obvious we can believe different things yet all have faith.

Be it unto you according to your faith Matt.9:29 Each of us here at least have the measure of faith that comes from the Gospel hence, we are saved. How much that faith grows throughout our walk with the Lord? Well, we will see when when we are evaluated, then the wood, hay and stubble will be burned away and we are left only with faith.

Thanks for the addition.

My understanding of your interpretation I think is again stated here and goes something like this:

• Faith = having faith in/from God's Truth
• Belief = believing things other than God's truth

Maybe you'd state this in simplicity otherwise and/or better.

This issue I have is that pistis means faith and belief and... So, the terms are interchangeable. And we don't call believers "faithers" simply because it doesn't sound right at this point. And linguistically there's really not much difference going through the Text and replacing "believe" with "have faith" so "faith from news" (Gospel) could just as easily be translated "belief from news". As long as we know what the content of belief or faith is being discussed, it's not an issue which word we use.

On that note, for example, I recall years ago working in Hebrews and specifically on Heb11. For instance Heb11:6:

Without pistis impossible to be pleasing, to clarify, to pisteuō is necessary for the man who comes to God​

​

Without belief impossible to be pleasing, to clarify, to believe is necessary for the man who comes to God​

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Without faith impossible to be pleasing, to clarify, to exercise faith is necessary for the man who comes to God​

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Without trust impossible to be pleasing, to clarify, to trust is necessary for the man who comes to God​

As I worked through a lot of such things it just became clear that no matter what word(s) we like or don't like for whatever reasons, the main thing that's necessary is that we just always keep in mind that the object is God or whatever related to Him He is identifying and having us focus on in the context.

As I again work through the Eph verses @reneweddaybyday brought up re: trust, my sense and recall are that those verses do not specify that trust comes before belief.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think we basically agree. Did you think otherwise?

no ... just driving home a point ...

Re: "first hoped" see also Eph3:5-9 for example

yes ... and if we'd all just realize that the church is to reveal to principalities and powers in heavenly paces the manifold wisdom of God, maybe we'd get a clue about this truth which goes beyond the scope of the gospel.

God is so, so good ... He is so, so wonderful ... He is so, so far beyond anything we can conceive to argue about [heh]
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[reneweddaybyday]

"Spoke directly to both" before or after the fall?

rolleyes ... God forbid we should come to agreement, Rufus ...
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[Rufus]

Our volition was made to be enabled to be free and to be efficacious by what?

By God's enabling power of Grace!

Grace is real power. Not simply an attitude of God towards us.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Cor 12:9a

The missing key to what you think is that grace is real power that God applies to us where we are too weak for effectual action.
When the grace is applied, then a choice made while under the grace to freely choose makes one accountable for what they choose.
For, even if someone is enabled by grace?

That grace does not make them unable to freely reject.
Grace makes their soul free to choose as it wishes, without the depravity of the flesh wishing to rule.

In other words, God's grace is ineffectual. What good is God's grace if it can't deliver the goods to helpless human beings? And since you just admitted that his grace has zero efficacy to it, then what primarily and effectually causes men to believe: the same thing that also causes them to not believe!? And Remnant Theology teaches that God's saving grace is virtually useless since the vast majority of the world has been perishing and is still perishing. Your version of God's grace is one huge EPIC FAIL! And you just stated why in what I bolded above!

Conversely, has God's grace/power ever failed when He applied it to temporal/physical reality? Did it fail in Egypt when he rescued the ancient and helpless Israelites? Did it fail in the wilderness when God provided food and water for the Jews? Did it fail when Elisha cured Namaan the leper? Or when Elijah raised the widow's son? Or when Jesus raised the widow of Nain's dead son to life? Did it fail when Jesus healed the blind man from birth? Or when he raised Lazarus from this tomb? Or when God raised Jesus from the dead? Get my drift?

But we're supposed to believe that God has multiple tiers of grace/power? Sometimes it's effectual and other times it isn't? And that God uses a cheaper, inferior quality of his grace/power when it comes to spiritual realities? Maybe your god plays those kinds of parlor tricks or games, but not mine!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Only those GIVEN to Jesus come.

If a person is incapable of receiving or accepting the spiritual things of God they are not going to "choose" to believe them.

Scripture says they are opposed to them. They are blinded to the truth.

It seems people overlook so much of what Scripture actually says.

Only those GIVEN to Jesus come.

Not either/or but both/and.

Here we see those given but yet in other passages we see that Christ died for everyone. For whoever will believe. God gave His Son for all. That is core Christian doctrine. So how do we harmonize a passage that seems to say only God gives some to Christ but yet the invitation is to all. A contradiction unless the giving is part of the Holy Spirit drawing all of mankind.

Those who are given are those whom God forknows to accept Christ. Forknowledge doesn't negate choice. God is outside of time.

2 John 9
English Standard Version
9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

I know this will challenge the perseverance of the saints and being sealed interpretation but only those who abide are those given to Christ. Meaning it is faithfulness in the finished work of Christ unto the end of life.

If a person is incapable of receiving or accepting the spiritual things of God they are not going to "choose" to believe them.

As to why God draws them so that none are with excuse. All have a choice as to why all are without excuse. People go to Hell not because of God, but because they chose Hell over God.

Scripture says they are opposed to them. They are blinded to the truth.

Except Paul says they are without excuse and that truth has been revealed.

The blinding only comes after they have chosen to reject the truth so many times. It is a judgment.

John 12:40 speaks of why God "blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts," as a consequence of their own rejection of the truth.

It seems people overlook so much of what Scripture actually says.

Maybe or it could just be harmonization issues.

 

[Rufus]

rolleyes ... God forbid we should come to agreement, Rufus ...
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What did we agree upon since you avoided answering the simple question?

 

[cv5]

yes ... I recently completed a study on the John 21 dialogue between Peter and the Lord Jesus Christ ... very refreshing. I'm going to have to take you up on the study of the capital "A" Apostles.
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Sorry John 21. Thanks.

 

[Jackson129]

"Spoke directly to both" before or after the fall?




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Well I would say because for some indeterminate amout of time between God creating Eve from Adam till they ate the apple, it would be safe to assume they both were in the presence of God and He spoke to them. Unless He just ignored Eve or put her outside evertime He spoke to Adam.

 

[Rufus]

Just glancing through this interpretive verse skipping narrative and so far this kind of stood out. Sounds synergistic.

The man had to wash his own eyes before he was rescued/saved?

Wouldn't the monergistic version be that Jesus just walked up and washed/cleansed him?

No, not necessarily since salvation is a process of sanctification/regeneration. You're operating under the assumption that God's grace is ineffectual in this process. Don't forget: That miracle also bears witness to the truth that Jesus gives Life to whomever HE WISHES! And that's exactly what took place with that blind man. Jesus sought him out because the Father had given him to Jesus in eternity. Monogerism does not negate human response to God's grace/power.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Your last paragraph actually contradicts your opening. The heart man is born with is not one that can believe. It needs to be replaced first. That is why I iterate what Scripture says about the flesh bringing forth fruit unto death. It is a bad tree and cannot produce the good fruit of faith. And I agree that man is responsible. He knows God exists but creation does not proclaim the gospel, either. But the gospel preached is foolishness to those who are perishing. That too is why something needs to change first. I hope you eye infection clears up!

I'm assuming you're referring to these quotes as a contradiction?

If God draws all but not all respond then to me the error falls on man. If God wants all to be saved and died for everyone but not everyone is saved, then I naturally see the error fall on man.

The debt of sin is eternal as sin separates us from perfection.

Maybe you can clarify if I fail to clarify but I see separation as in they could never enter the eternal presence of God unless atoned for. God wants all but the choice is on mankind not on God. As to why only man commits sin and are justly judged for choosing to reject Jesus.

Maybe man is born depraved but God moves in to draw them. Even morality is detected in infants.

So I agree God has to move first.

Thank you about the eye. It has been really sensitive to light today.