Until you are saved you are not free except to sin. This is what Romans 7 is all about. You can see what is right, because the grace of God ensures you see it, but try as you might, you cannot not sin. Eventually you will succumb to the desires of your flesh.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Until you are saved you are not free except to sin. This is what Romans 7 is all about. You can see what is right, because the grace of God ensures you see it, but try as you might, you cannot not sin. Eventually you will succumb to the desires of your flesh.
I suggest you read my posts again with some effort to try understand everything I'm saying and not just the parts that suit your agenda.
To God, you have always been known. Your repentance and belief did not take the Lord by surprise.
No-one is predestined for salvation, we are predestined because we are saved, a salvation known to God before time. The doctrine of predestination is based on God's foreknowledge meaning He knew something before He decided to elect you for something.
I think the question begs asking. What did He know?
Also, the fact is, we are a member of the predestined elect, that cannot be denied. It's what that means where I and others disagree with the Tulip/Calvies/Reformed mob (or whatever term that is used).
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. Yes, natural men can believe because God manifests the truth in grace ( Rom.1:19 ) just as demons can believe God exists because He graciously allowed them to live face to face with Him until their rebellion.
The Gospel is the end of the road when it comes to salvation (unless you think you can lose your salvation, then you might think differently). There are things that must be believed prior to believing the Gospel.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
One must first believe He exists. Demons have no problem with that one, the Romans 1 mob didn't even get that far. Then one must believe God is good. Most probably the biggest hardship for humanity due to the level of suffering in the world, especially of "innocents". It certainly is generally always the first and largest argument I hear from unbelievers. I'm sure you've heard it many times.
It's the drawing through these states that John 6 is talking about. When they get to the end of the road they find Christ is there because He is God and that is who they have been heading toward even though they did not know it was Him. They have been learning from the Father.
I'm not inconsistent. I don't pray for God to save someone. For one thing I don't need to because He has already decided to save believers and secondly because I pray He has mercy on them because He is merciful, I pray He presents them with His truth, I pray He guards them against the enemy but I never pray He saves them because neither one of us can make a person believe without violating that person's freedom to believe.
Oh and BTW, no created being fully comprehends the greatest of the 11 mysteries.
[1Ti 3:16 KJV] 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
And NO, Satan DEFINITELY did not fully comprehend God's plan at the cross.
[1Co 2:8 KJV] 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
And something else.....Judas-Satan desperately tried to abort his plan upon realizing that Jesus was in fact going to be crucified. Though his knowledge was still murky and incomplete. Because of course the NT had yet to be written. Buuuutttt....too late. The clueless Pharisees went ahead anyways.
[Mat 27:4 KJV] 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].
Faith pleases God so it is not biblical faith they have is it. I have made it quite clear throughout my posts that I see our believing and saving faith as not being the same thing therefore I don't see your comment really adds anything to the discussion.
I may have replied to your post in error ... oops ...
I do not believe a born again believer can become un-born ... the born again believer can miss out on close fellowship with the Father in his or her walk in this life, but he or she is still a child of God.sawdust said:
yupsawdust said:
sawdust said:
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I think we are not fully born until the adoption at the resurrection of the body.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. Romans 8:22-25
The word born means procreate or conceive.
G1080 γεννάω gennao (ǰen-naō') v.
1. (properly, of the father) to procreate.
2. (by extension, of the mother) to conceive.
3. (figuratively) to regenerate.
So a fetus has been conceived, but isn't fully born for 9 months. Something born in the womb can die. The born cannot be unborn idea has shades of gnosticism. They believed once they received gnosis they could never perish no matter what they did because they were spiritual beings that could never die
[Jhn 10:28 KJV] 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
[Mat 27:4 KJV] 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].
Yes, at this point Satan realized that he had been outplayed and had been duped. He was little more than a flailing hapless buffoon.
And everything Satan did was in accordance with his own will and desire, yet despite this, God's will had been accomplished.
And God stands blameless and justified and holy all the while.
Which of course is why the Pharaoh of the Exodus is a type of Satan. Similar conflict, similar result. Pharaoh gets the blame God gets the glory.
Yeah I am.
God is in control, not the devil <- that is what I would claim.
I do believe 1 John 5:19 could be one proof text.
Okay. No analogy is perfect I recognize that. Foreknowledge yes, but the Bible teaches that God knowing people will reject the gospel, Jesus still died for those people:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Why I cannot say. Perhaps to show how graceful He is that even those who tread on His Son and even the false prophets, Jesus still died for them. Making their salvation a real possibility if they turn to Christ.
2 Cor 5:19-20 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
look up the word for foreknowledge, God knows His elect prior to the foundation of the world.
everything that can be known. God did not choose us based on foreseen faith. that is not true. that would mean we elect ourselves and then God chooses those who choose Him.
Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
im glad you agree with that. i by no means think being a calvinist means you are saved. salvation isnt a theology puzzle to solve and there are vast numbers of lost calvinists in this world. i used to be so against calvinism and i still wouldnt like to be called one. i just believe what the bible says, and people before calvin figured this out too, he got most of his stuff from st. augustine
they do but remember thats not allowed, that is changing the rules. it has to be free will remember. if God appears in a dream to one man and not another, thats "not fair" and its making the other person more likely to use his free will to believe.
the free will is such a golden calf to christendom. its unbelievable how far people are willing to go to hold on to it. they dont think about the consequences.
God wants to save all, God can be prayed to and He will then show people Himself in a dream or some miracle or something. but if God truly wants to save all He could just appear to everyone tonight in a dream, every single person in the world. why doesnt He do it?
It'll be interesting to see the continuation of this line of reasoning and argument when you get to this post. (linked)
You (and others) are misrepresenting the thinking of others hopefully because you just don't understand it. The problem with some here is that it seems more tactical than misunderstanding.
God did show Himself to His people and some chose to intensely reject Him which He allowed and lamented. You underestimate God's revelation of Himself to all men, the power of human will He's designed and allows to reject Him, and His desire for willful submission to Him by all men.
Re: His fairness, I doubt anyone here thinks God is unfair. It's rather what we think is unfair, would God actually do what we think is unfair, are we understanding unfairness correctly.
7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly,
so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.
Question: How do you read Paul's prayer for the salvation of Israel in Rom10:1?
Doesn't the continuing context reveal that his prayer includes his understanding that the necessity of choosing to believe Jesus is Messiah underlies his prayer? IOW, if we pray for the salvation of all men with the understanding that this means we're praying that all men believe Jesus is the Christ, aren't we praying according to God's will and likely even His good pleasure?
One of the interesting things to me about Rom10:1 is that Paul doesn't say it's his will that Israel be saved, rather he uses a word that means good pleasure and he ties it to his heart. It's the same word at times attributed to God's good pleasure and the same word proclaimed by the angelic host at Christ's first advent Luke2:14.