Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

It's this type of discussion that can find answers. All the very weak, invasive, repetitious reformed rhetoric and misuse of Scripture just derails the discussions and puts them on a never-ending merry-go-round going nowhere.

Fun reading this morning. The absence of the rhetorical group from this brief chain of posts was an excellent break.

Yes sir.

 

[BillyBob]

They can't be in a state of unbelief unless they first have something to not believe ergo, God always initiates with grace and truth and the Devil follows closely behind with his "brand of truth". I strongly suspect many people have forgotten or were completely unaware of their first encounter with the Lord because they were very young. But He is there from the get go. The Spirit is in the world convincing people of righteousness, sin and judgment. Needless to say, the Devil's doing his own version of convincing as well.

Did the devil change your heart to not believe or did you decide that for yourself? You came into this world knowing neither truth nor lies, you heard both from somewhere. If the "devil didn't make you do it", why would you think God made you believe the truth? Why is it so hard to accept your decisions between truth and error are your decisions? It doesn't in anyway take away from God's power or glory as it was by means of His grace and mercy you heard the truth in the first place and it was His power that saved you based on His own determination to save believers. It was His design that gave you the capacity to use your will for limited self determination.

God has never given our volition the power to create reality so how could our volition be responsible for changing our reality simply because we use it as God tells us to do? "repent and believe", "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" "choose you this day" etc. You weren't living in a coma all your life until the Gospel suddenly sprang into your heart. You have been making decisions for and against the Lord all your life.

You couldn't answer with a simple yes or no, which takes me back to your post which stated the following:
The above poster thinks we think that we don't believe we are saved by God's grace alone. He/she thinks we save ourselves.

And again, I say that the poster was spot on!
The FW crowd, including yourself, seem to have and inward desire to rob God of His glory. They all have a need to believe that they in some way contribute to their salvation. That a work, on their part, is required to help God reach His decision.
Therefore, I agree with that poster, because that certainly is not my idea of God's grace alone....

 

[cv5]

Certainly, the demons believe that God EXISTS. They surely saw His face many times before they fell.
However, they do NOT believe what God SAYS about Himself or what He is intending to do, nor do they believe that He is Good.

Belief in existence evidently falls short. Very short.

[Heb 11:6 KJV]
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Simply stated:
Do the demons and Satan TRUST God or think that He is always Good?
No they do not. They think that God is evil and utterly untrustworthy.

We, on the other hand, DO believe that God is both trustworthy and Good.
Because......He says so! And we believe Him!
Not to mention that He proved Himself true and trustworthy time and time again.
By which things therewith we can seize onto our promised deliverance in faith.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So, what or who is the final and efficacious determinant of man's salvation, since it isn't God (the Provider of Atonement) or Man (the Responder to God's provision? The devil, maybe?

Who made the final decision

Jesus said he will be raised so all who believes will neve rperish

who determines the salvation of the person even if they believe

God or the person?

 

[Burn1986]

I would say that we have free will.

God will bring us to the point where the only choices are trust Him or die.

 

[lrs68]

You couldn't answer with a simple yes or no, which takes me back to your post which stated the following:
The above poster thinks we think that we don't believe we are saved by God's grace alone. He/she thinks we save ourselves.

And again, I say that the poster was spot on!
The FW crowd, including yourself, seem to have and inward desire to rob God of His glory. They all have a need to believe that they in some way contribute to their salvation. That a work, on their part, is required to help God reach His decision.
Therefore, I agree with that poster, because that certainly is not my idea of God's grace alone....

Which is more glorious to GOD HIMSELF?

1. God choosing who is Saved or goes eternally to Hell

2. God's Creation, once awakened by God, choosing the Gift God has made for them

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So a perfect, holy, righteous and good God cannot dispense with HIS gift as he sees fit. Mankind deserves His gift? Or man has an inalienable right to His gift? Can you elaborate on what the judicial basis would be that would make God unfair or unrighteousness?

A God who calls himself loving, has the obligation to prove he is a god of love

a God who tells us to serve those who persecute us, to love them. to not do anything against them yet does not do this himself is a hypocrite.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Actually, it's God's efficacious grace that led them to their knees. Sinners do not believe by their own freewill choice but by the grace of God. Sinners do not purify their own hearts by their acts of faith, God does!

So God forced them? Got it

Also, what good is God's "intervention" since he only provides opportunities for people to save themselves.

I did nto save myself God saved me

It's very clear that His "intervention" and "opportunities" result in the vast majority of mankind going to hell. But this is to be expected since FWers view God as merely a potential Savior.

Actually Jesus himself said his sacrifice was able to save all men. but not all would be saved.

he came not to judge, but that they MAY BE SAVED

who is they?

the world.

Darkness

we were in darkness.

we have been brought to the light. those who enter the light by Gods provision are his children, no longer alienated.

but God will not force you to receive him

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God does not go back on his own judgment since His Son paid the sin debt of all the Father's elect.

No. he died for the world. the word elect is not found in John 3

But the spiritually dead have as much spiritual ability as the physically dead have physical ability. So...God must raise the dead in order for them to respond positively to His Son's atoning work.

So God forcefully keeps people from having the ability to be saved, and forces other against their free will to be saved

again, Got it.

 

[HeIsHere]

Did you always know you belonged to Christ?

To me this question suggests the concept of being a member of the predestined elect and waiting for the revelation of its reality.

Yes, you seem to add in an need of choice at some point, as a means of verifying what was already in place.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

NONSENSE!

Sorry brothers Gods love and his word is not nonsense!!!

For I know you mean "all" in the distributive sense, which is easily refutable. Has God offered his saving grace to infants, babies, youngsters who have no true knowledge of good and evil and die before they attain to such knowledge? Where is God's grace in his decree to end the lives of millions of such people every year before they have an "opportunity" to be saved? What opportunities do such people get?

Or where was God's grace to "all" when the Holy Spirit forbade Paul and his fellow evangelists from going into Asia to preach the gospel (Act 16:6-7)? What opportunity did Asia get at that time?

lol..

He died for the world.. He even died for his own. but his own did not recieve him.

but as many who did recieve him, to THEM he gave the right to become children..

He saved them,l they did not save themselves.. But they had to chose to recieve him

 

[cv5]

So a perfect, holy, righteous and good God cannot dispense with HIS gift as he sees fit.

Get a clue man. He did.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

By the time someone repents, they have already had a change of heart and mind.

This change of heart and mind is the act of repenting.

So no. they have not yet had a change of mind. thay may be in the process. but until it is complete. they have not repented

Repentance is the evidence this is so. If repentance is required to be saved, salvation is by grace plus repentance.

No repentance is what happens. God changes our hearts and minds by his word. but we must react to his word. or continue in unbelief

 

[cv5]

By the time someone repents, they have already had a change of heart and mind. Repentance is the evidence this is so. If repentance is required to be saved, salvation is by grace plus repentance.

No.
Repentance is when the "spiritual transaction" takes place.
It is when the bride says "I do" to the Groom sealing the covenant.
In other words, it takes two to tango.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So what can we conclude from this? Believing something is true and having faith are not necessarily the same thing, yes? Therefore, is it reasonable to suggest that believing and faith are not necessarily the same thing at all times? I believe, within correct context, they can be seen as different things coming from different sources

natural men believe ... the issue is that they either haven't heard the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe in order for God to bring them to salvation ... or ... if they have heard the gospel of Christ and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they remain unsaved ... or ... someone tells them something that is not the gospel while claiming it is the gospel and they believe the lie.
.

 

[BillyBob]

In other words, it takes two to tango.

So you are saying that it is not by grace alone......

 

[Melach]

@cv5 @GWH @studier

The above poster thinks we think that we don't believe we are saved by God's grace alone. He/she thinks we save ourselves.

Give a thumbs up to this post if you think we are saved by God's grace alone. Give a disagree if you think we save ourselves.

i know you believe you are saved by grace. you are just inconsistent in your beliefs. you will pray for God to save someone, but you should be praying to people, not God. God cant do anything about it remember, it has to be people's free will decision to believe the gospel.

this idea doesnt work anywhere else in this life either. i cannot believe the sky is green no matter how much i try. i just cannot believe it. you dont believe the things you dont believe.

 

[Melach]

From Romans 1 [God manifesting Himself through His Creation\People (are created)]...

From Corinthians and Romans [God manifesting Himself to a person's consciousness (in their thoughts)]...

From Romans and Ephesians [God manifesting Himself by hearing the Gospel preached]...

There's no doubt that God has made the first move in every humans life to make Himself known so they would believe.

Also from those Scriptures humanity has the ability to reject or accept God.

That is proof of Free Will!

He hasnt. there are countless of men in this world who have never had a supernatural experience of any sort. even in the bible only few people got a stopping revelation such as st.paul. the people at pentecost didn't get that. most people dont.

God draws in whatever way He chooses to do

 

[Melach]

No.
Repentance is when the "spiritual transaction" takes place.
It is when the bride says "I do" to the Groom sealing the covenant.
In other words, it takes two to tango.

does the groom get to choose the bride?

 

[lrs68]

He hasnt. there are countless of men in this world who have never had a supernatural experience of any sort. even in the bible only few people got a stopping revelation such as st.paul. the people at pentecost didn't get that. most people dont.

God draws in whatever way He chooses to do

Then Paul lied.

If Paul lied why are you promoting a doctrine you have created by Paul's Letters?