Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

Do you realize that a forgery is just a counterfeit made in the name of something? You might as well just come out and say you're trying to refer to the book of Jasher which is a lost book. It is very well known that another book of Jasher was forged by a heretic from Britain in the 1700s AD.

Basically your argument is analogous to trying to convince someone that there are 25 hours in a day because a fake rolex says that there is, and when pointed out that the fake rolex is in fact not a real rolex turning around and saying well it has the word rolex stamped on it even though it's well known that the fake rolex was forged just last week in a well known fraudster's basement.

Do you realize Jews have everything properly documented and given to them by God directly unlike the Gentiles. They even have everything needed to know who Yeshua is but were purposely blinded and deafened so the Gentiles could be added. The only forgery are the ones the Gentiles claim but in reality were given to the Jews by God Himself.

 

[SonJudgment]

Do you realize Jews have everything properly documented and given to them by God directly unlike the Gentiles. They even have everything needed to know who Yeshua is but were purposely blinded and deafened so the Gentiles could be added. The only forgery are the ones the Gentiles claim but in reality were given to the Jews by God Himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_haYashar

Well you go ahead and tell me which one on the list is the right one. The fun tie-in to the topic of freewill is that no matter which one you choose you certainly are destined to pick wrong since they were all written thousands of years removed from the lost authentic book of Jasher and all the forgers and false religions that believe in them are all certified enemies of God which means they're pretty obvious forgeries to say the very least of it.

 

[LifelongLearner]

In a different time zone to most of you, went offline after my last comment early yesterday eve my time, had things to do.

Truly surprised at the arrogant, pompous attitude displayed by quite a few on this forum, who clearly have an issue with free speech for people who disagree with them. Very likely they'd begrudge the right of others to free will too, if it existed.

Sadly, quite a few of you have posted comments, i'm just one person and quite frankly have much better things to waste my time on, than replying to vacuous comments. Won't bother posting another comment currently, know well a flood of further comments could be posted spitefully. Will just throw in a comment or few if a reply interests me enough.

 

[GWH]

In a different time zone to most of you, went offline after my last comment early yesterday eve my time, had things to do.

Truly surprised at the arrogant, pompous attitude displayed by quite a few on this forum, who clearly have an issue with free speech for people who disagree with them. Very likely they'd begrudge the right of others to free will too, if it existed.

Sadly, quite a few of you have posted comments, i'm just one person and quite frankly have much better things to waste my time on, than replying to vacuous comments. Won't bother posting another comment currently, know well a flood of further comments could be posted spitefully. Will just throw in a comment or few if a reply interests me enough.

Yes, we need to do what we can to keep the general direction of discussion going toward essential agreement/unity rather than succumbing to the temptation to be argumentative. I just had to apologize for not doing well enough myself, apparently.

It would be helpful in this regard for folks to provide quotes when accusing someone of saying something objectionable, because this should enable folks to clear up confusion and misunderstanding--and apologize when wrong.

Also, avoid veering off into ad hominem attacks, projection and quarrelling (cf. 1TM 6:3-4, 2TM 2:23, TIT 3:9-10, RM 16:17, 1CR 1:10, PHP 4:2). If a point cannot be made in 2 or 3 tries, move on.

Instead of adopting "either/or thinking" as our default position, try employing "both/and harmonization", which is often needed in order to sew Scripture together into one tapestry without cutting off parts.

Regarding Calvinism, consider whether it would be better to accentuate God’s all-lovingness instead of implying divine determinism of souls to hell (which may reflect hateful tendencies in our own fallen nature), so that we will not be guilty of blaspheming or insulting the righteousness of the HS, even implicitly.

Finally, persevere in being humble or teachable, admitting our fallibility, as well as in having saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord.

 

[Jimbone]

Calvinism is a travesty.
But, so is any false teaching that sucks in true believers.

Not as big a travesty as people who take their warped view of what Calvinism is and use it as a label and cudgel to beat other professing Christians over the head with every time even the smallest of perceived difference pops into their closed mind. People that do not listen to the other they are speaking with, and even lie about what the others say and believe, to boost their own ego's to win an argument, and that's it. So they can high five each other and feel like just the Holy Warriors God needs to protect His word.

They don't see fit to talk about atheism, Hinduism, Satanism, the Occult, Islam, Mormonism, J-Witnesses, or Buddhism. Nope, it's the body they have to divide. They don't come with truth and understanding, trying to open the eyes of those who can't see, Nope they just attack a strawman of their own imagination. It's not like they go to a Calvinist site and debate those who call themselves Calvinist, nope, they come here to falsely label others Calvinist and go on to argue against their own arguments never even giving the other person the respect of engaging with what they actually say.

Again they come here to label and attack fellow Christians who tell them straight up "I'm not a Calvinist, never read Calvin, don't teach or preach the five points, have no connection to now, nor ever have to anything "Calvin". Then they label you "Calvinist" anyway and go on to destroy teachings that not only you don't believe, but aren't even what Calvinism teaches. They will not listen to anything you say, and do not engage in good faith to sharpen each other. They act in a way that is hateful, dishonest, prideful, peace rejecting, agents of chaos, that behave very self-righteously, and have a VERY LOW opinion of God and His power while lifting themselves and feebly trying to claim some of His glory for themselves via "free will".

They HATE hearing "God gets ALL glory for everything", they HATE it. This is what is a travesty to me.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Yes, we need to do what we can to keep the general direction of discussion going toward essential agreement/unity rather than succumbing to the temptation to be argumentative. I just had to apologize for not doing well enough myself, apparently.

It would be helpful in this regard for folks to provide quotes when accusing someone of saying something objectionable, because this should enable folks to clear up confusion and misunderstanding--and apologize when wrong.

Also, avoid veering off into ad hominem attacks, projection and quarrelling (cf. 1TM 6:3-4, 2TM 2:23, TIT 3:9-10, RM 16:17, 1CR 1:10, PHP 4:2). If a point cannot be made in 2 or 3 tries, move on.

Instead of adopting "either/or thinking" as our default position, try employing "both/and harmonization", which is often needed in order to sew Scripture together into one tapestry without cutting off parts.

Regarding Calvinism, consider whether it would be better to accentuate God’s all-lovingness instead of implying divine determinism of souls to hell (which may reflect hateful tendencies in our own fallen nature), so that we will not be guilty of blaspheming or insulting the righteousness of the HS, even implicitly.

Finally, persevere in being humble or teachable, admitting our fallibility, as well as in having saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord.

Nice comment, appreciated, however, personally think we learn so much from civilised debate with others, have done so myself. i'm one of those people who genuinely loves learning and actively seeks opportunities to do so in life. Sadly, most people seem to want their biases to be confirmed, not realising how much they limit/damage themselves.

Did think there'd be fewer people like that on a forum such as this but apparently not. However, still newish to the forum and couldn't post comments here for quite a while because of sudden offset arthritis, wait and see maybe. Might also be that topics i choose trigger the jobsworth, judgmental, more unstable elements etc. Which would be a pity but if so, i'll just have to put up with it.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Not as big a travesty as people who take their warped view of what Calvinism is and use it as a label and cudgel to beat other professing Christians over the head with every time even the smallest of perceived difference pops into their closed mind. People that do not listen to the other they are speaking with, and even lie about what the others say and believe, to boost their own ego's to win an argument, and that's it. So they can high five each other and feel like just the Holy Warriors God needs to protect His word.

They don't see fit to talk about atheism, Hinduism, Satanism, the Occult, Islam, Mormonism, J-Witnesses, or Buddhism. Nope, it's the body they have to divide. They don't come with truth and understanding, trying to open the eyes of those who can't see, Nope they just attack a strawman of their own imagination. It's not like they go to a Calvinist site and debate those who call themselves Calvinist, nope, they come here to falsely label others Calvinist and go on to argue against their own arguments never even giving the other person the respect of engaging with what they actually say.

Again they come here to label and attack fellow Christians who tell them straight up "I'm not a Calvinist, never read Calvin, don't teach or preach the five points, have no connection to now, nor ever have to anything "Calvin". Then they label you "Calvinist" anyway and go on to destroy teachings that not only you don't believe, but aren't even what Calvinism teaches. They will not listen to anything you say, and do not engage in good faith to sharpen each other. They act in a way that is hateful, dishonest, prideful, peace rejecting, agents of chaos, that behave very self-righteously, and have a VERY LOW opinion of God and His power while lifting themselves and feebly trying to claim some of His glory for themselves via "free will".

They HATE hearing "God gets ALL glory for everything", they HATE it. This is what is a travesty to me.

It was Calvinists who sparked my spiritual journey last Spring, i'll always be so grateful to them.

Seriously don't care what label would be applied to me now, it isn't important to me and know i still have much to learn. Well, think there's probably no end to learning and growth in this journey, which floats my boat for sure

So many people seem to think it's a competition, either/or experience and so on. Personally still agree with Calvinist thinking on some stuff, think it's a pity to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[GWH]

Not as big a travesty as people who take their warped view of what Calvinism is and use it as a label and cudgel to beat other professing Christians over the head with every time even the smallest of perceived difference pops into their closed mind. People that do not listen to the other they are speaking with, and even lie about what the others say and believe, to boost their own ego's to win an argument, and that's it. So they can high five each other and feel like just the Holy Warriors God needs to protect His word.

They don't see fit to talk about atheism, Hinduism, Satanism, the Occult, Islam, Mormonism, J-Witnesses, or Buddhism. Nope, it's the body they have to divide. They don't come with truth and understanding, trying to open the eyes of those who can't see, Nope they just attack a strawman of their own imagination. It's not like they go to a Calvinist site and debate those who call themselves Calvinist, nope, they come here to falsely label others Calvinist and go on to argue against their own arguments never even giving the other person the respect of engaging with what they actually say.

Again they come here to label and attack fellow Christians who tell them straight up "I'm not a Calvinist, never read Calvin, don't teach or preach the five points, have no connection to now, nor ever have to anything "Calvin". Then they label you "Calvinist" anyway and go on to destroy teachings that not only you don't believe, but aren't even what Calvinism teaches. They will not listen to anything you say, and do not engage in good faith to sharpen each other. They act in a way that is hateful, dishonest, prideful, peace rejecting, agents of chaos, that behave very self-righteously, and have a VERY LOW opinion of God and His power while lifting themselves and feebly trying to claim some of His glory for themselves via "free will".

They HATE hearing "God gets ALL glory for everything", they HATE it. This is what is a travesty to me.

Did you see my apology for coming across as cudgeling Christians?

I hope you know that I have talked about atheism, Hinduism, Islam and Mormonism on CC.

I also want you to know that I was raised as a P-Calvinist Baptist, but I learned by reading the Bible through thrice that perseverance is needed. Later, I did a seminary study on Augustine of Hippo, which is why I learned that his understanding of God's omnilove and justice was weak--but Calvin swallowed it hook, line and sinker, unfortunately.

Regarding "free will", I would like for you to understand that it merely makes possible saving faith (and a just hell), which in no way is meritorious or glory-claiming.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sorry, delayed reply as i confused user names. it's being able to make and execute a choice, without constraints or external influence. The only being who can do that in my opinion, is God himself, we need the good will of others to realise our choices.

We also have to recognise they have the same rights, not doing so is part of the reason why the world is largely harsh and unfair. Hope that makes some sense, i'm pretty tuckered out from repeating the same thing over on this post.

Can one execute a choice freely if one is aware of the constraints or external/internal influence.
Seems to me if a person can execute one choice without influence or constraint then that person has executed free will.

The problem is it is always viewed as a "zero-sum game" no free will, yes free will, and that is a very reductionist view of human nature and the world.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Can one execute a choice freely if one is aware of the constraints or external/internal influence.
Seems to me if a person can execute one choice without influence or constraint then that person has executed free will.

The problem is it is always viewed as a "zero-sum game" no free will, yes free will, and that is a very reductionist view of human nature and the world.

Personally think it's very rare we can implement a choice without the cooperation of others, to me, free will is being able to execute both together, unilaterally. The only being i think can do that is God himself, all other beings need the cooperation of others to at least some degree.

Don't think it's possible to define free will perfectly but so hope my definition makes some sense to you.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Personally think it's very rare we can implement a choice without the cooperation of others, to me, free will is being able to execute both together, unilaterally. The only being i think can do that is God himself, all other beings need the cooperation of others to at least some degree.

Don't think it's possible to define free will perfectly but so hope my definition makes some sense to you.

Actually, we can easily implement choices which don't impact others, like reading a book, make a cup of coffee etc. However, think most people think of free will as being involved in more impactful events.

 

[HeIsHere]

Personally think it's very rare we can implement a choice without the cooperation of others, to me, free will is being able to execute both together, unilaterally. The only being i think can do that is God himself, all other beings need the cooperation of others to at least some degree.

Don't think it's possible to define free will perfectly but so hope my definition makes some sense to you.

Agree there a many definitions.
I do think there are choices that do not require anyone's cooperation.
The choice is not first when it comes to the Gospel in my view.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Agree there a many definitions.
I do think there are choices that do not require anyone's cooperation.
The choice is not first when it comes to the Gospel in my view.

It's complex for sure and don't think anyone can claim to have an authoritative definition of it. Definitely enjoy exploring such things with others but view it as a fun learning experience for all participants, not a competition.
Yes, i can agree God can make choices for us if he wants too. Also think he might call us if we think something very close to his heart, His love and mercy are as great as his power and righteousness.

 

[Genez]

Not as big a travesty as people who take their warped view of what Calvinism is and use it as a label and cudgel to beat other professing Christians over the head with every time even the smallest of perceived difference pops into their closed mind. People that do not listen to the other they are speaking with, and even lie about what the others say and believe, to boost their own ego's to win an argument, and that's it. So they can high five each other and feel like just the Holy Warriors God needs to protect His word.

They don't see fit to talk about atheism, Hinduism, Satanism, the Occult, Islam, Mormonism, J-Witnesses, or Buddhism. Nope, it's the body they have to divide. They don't come with truth and understanding, trying to open the eyes of those who can't see, Nope they just attack a strawman of their own imagination. It's not like they go to a Calvinist site and debate those who call themselves Calvinist, nope, they come here to falsely label others Calvinist and go on to argue against their own arguments never even giving the other person the respect of engaging with what they actually say.

Again they come here to label and attack fellow Christians who tell them straight up "I'm not a Calvinist, never read Calvin, don't teach or preach the five points, have no connection to now, nor ever have to anything "Calvin". Then they label you "Calvinist" anyway and go on to destroy teachings that not only you don't believe, but aren't even what Calvinism teaches. They will not listen to anything you say, and do not engage in good faith to sharpen each other. They act in a way that is hateful, dishonest, prideful, peace rejecting, agents of chaos, that behave very self-righteously, and have a VERY LOW opinion of God and His power while lifting themselves and feebly trying to claim some of His glory for themselves via "free will".

They HATE hearing "God gets ALL glory for everything", they HATE it. This is what is a travesty to me.

I'm not closed-minded.
But, I don't think your closed mind will believe that.

Sail on....

Drama queen time over.

 

[HeIsHere]

Calvinism is a travesty.
But, so is any false teaching that sucks in true believers.

Tis true

 

[lrs68]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_haYashar

Well you go ahead and tell me which one on the list is the right one. The fun tie-in to the topic of freewill is that no matter which one you choose you certainly are destined to pick wrong since they were all written thousands of years removed from the lost authentic book of Jasher and all the forgers and false religions that believe in them are all certified enemies of God which means they're pretty obvious forgeries to say the very least of it.

You know nothing about how Jews protect ancient manuscripts from outsiders.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Fallen man can fulfill his will, we can make a decision based on our understanding. ...

Precious friend, let me double-check and see if I understand correctly?:

Fallen men can "fulfill God's Will" obeying by repenting and making a faith-based
decision based on understanding. - Like this?:

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God Hath​

Shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the​

world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even​

His Eternal Power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..."​

(Romans 1:19-20 AV)​

​

Thus, fallen man has no excuse, and will be Held Accountable for making a
[ free-will? ] choice of saying 'no' to God, Correct?
+
On the other hand saying "Yes in faith" is Biblically Confirmed, eh?:

"...without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must​

believe that He is, and that He Is A Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."​

(Hebrews 11:6 AV)​

​

Amen.

 

[BillyBob]

Yes. We have freewill.

The scary part.....Everyone who says "no." Their objective, drive and PASSION is to deny we have a choice for His Gospel. This should give any true believer great pause.

Seems that the freewill debate is ongoing, and it appears that it will never end.
The FW'ers mostly claim that (Man is not totally depraved and has the ability to think and make spiritual decisions for himself, Thank you! We don't need any help, Thank you! We made the choice entirely on our own, Thank you!), while the Reformed side of the debate claims that (Man is totally depraved and has lost the ability to place his trust in God unless he is regenerated! Regeneration is an act of God and comes by hearing and believing the WORD OF GOD and the work of the Holy Spirit. Once man has receive a new heart, the ability to please God is partially restored and he is enabled to believe and cannot do otherwise!)
Folks on both sides of the debate may well spend eternity in the presence of God. In my opinion however, the FW'ers beliefs rob God of His glory by giving man credit for an act that comes from God.
I say, “To God be the glory, Amen”!

“Amen” comes from a Semitic root that means “firm,” “fixed,” or “sure”.

True believers with the Reformed view can take comfort in knowing that their salvation comes from God and is therefore sitting on a firm foundation!

 

[sawdust]

If she based her decision on anything at all then it is not freewill, and if she had to be beguiled to make a decision it's not 100% voluntary.

Huh? You don't even seem to understand what volition is or how it works. You can't make decisions without information. She freely chose to be deceived. There was no "spell" associated with the serpent's lie.

Congratulations you destroyed your own premise for me and confirmed mine.

Congratulations, a legend in your own lunchbox.

God's grace is his mercy, grace is something one doesn't deserve that's why it's grace.

It's the way we are created mate, in God's image and likeness. He has given to us limited self determination within ourselves just as He has absolute determination within Himself. Grace is what enables us to stand free and make our own determination when information (the Gospel) is presented. We do not determine our own salvation, we determine whether we will believe or we will not believe. We do the believing, it is God who does the saving.

John 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Well, all except our volition of course. That is never allowed to be free. God forbid man should ever be allowed to make their own response to the Gospel.

 

[Inquisitor]

Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?

Determinism in action.

Born male or female is not a choice.

The family your born into is not a choice.

What your family believes is not your choice.

Your education is not your choice.

The suburb, city, country, your born in; is not a choice you make.

The majority of people will work forty years and that is forced upon you.

Your genetic health is not a choice.

The government you have is not a personal choice.

Only one way to eternal life and that is by believing in Jesus and no other option is available.

Even the gospel was divinely determined.

Yet, you may get only one choice and that is whether you will believe in Jesus.