Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

Salvation is a one piece puzzle, and the one piece is God's grace. Therefore, it is only man's vanity that attempts to add another piece to complete it.
Christ's work is complete and lacks nothing! It is finished. . . . .

Here is Grace....

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But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in ​

weakness.” Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that ​

Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

So?
How many believers today think of 'unmerited favor' we are told grace is, as being actual enabling power from God?
Many will speak the word 'grace.'
But how many really know what God is doing with it?

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. ​

No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (1 Cor 15:10)​

Grace is God's power for ennoblement!
For we are the chosen Royal Family of God!

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special ​

possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness ​

into his wonderful light." 1 Peter 2:9​

We need to learn to know what we have been given!

Some here resent those advancing to take the high ground God wants us to take.
They snipe and snoot.


grace and peace ...........

 

[Rufus]

cv5 said:
So I take it that your trust resides in the efficacious power of the "loaded dice" and "rigged gaming tables" that God must facilitate in His salvation scheme, as He is incapable of achieving His goals honestly and honorably?

Take note @Magenta

You sound more and more everyday like your serpentine father. All you know how to do is to blaspheme God.

How ironic that you question God's honesty and honor when there isn't an innately honest human being that has every come into this world. And Natural Revelation bears witness to this truth since the world does not and indeed dare not run on the honor system. The world universally presumes all men unknown to it to be untrustworthy.

 

[Magenta]

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 v 6-8 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 v 13-14

 

[Rufus]

Lol, built in assumptions as per usual by those who adhere to "Reformed" doctrine.

And that is absolutely the problem in your soteriology because reality some are saved and others left in their sins when he could have saved them all.

The real Gospel of salvation according to scripture rightly interpreted has none of these philosophical questions.

But the FWer version of the "Gospel of salvation" is replete with theological problems! So...there is that.

 

[Rufus]

Getting late so maybe more tomorrow. I'll touch on Rom10 now. If you want to follow up, I'll leave it for you to do so. One piece at a time so no Rom9 or 11 tonight, which actually address hardening.

I don't see a speedbump in Rom10, at least not for the formula I laid out that you seem to say you're not disagreeing with. If there's any speedbump here, it's more of a wall to stop the thinking that God is preventing belief-obedience. By Rom10:3 Paul has identified the issue being one not of zeal but of a lack of knowledge and submission.

Rom10:16-17 and 21 says the issue is disobedience not God hardening or withholding grace or preventing hearing. 10:18-21 show God's persistent efforts at turning Israel and the irony of others who did not have all of Israel's grace provision finding God while Israel turned from Him.

I don't see the hardening I think you're saying is in these verses. I see a people who are described as disobedient-unbelieving & oppositional and God doing several things to turn them back to Him and at the time of writing, to bring them to faith-obedience in His Gospel of His Son.

And do you know who not only lacks [spiritual] knowledge but hates it: Can you spell FOOLS?

 

[Magenta]

But the FWer version of the "Gospel of salvation" is replete with theological problems! So...there is that.

All of "free will" is an assumption. It is certainly not taught in the Bible. In fact many Scriptural truths
have to be thrown over in order for them to adhere to their self-exalting doctrine. That is why we see
them so often contradicting and denying what Scripture plainly says in many places from several authors
across multiple books within the Bible. Things which are explicitly articulated get rewritten by them
because as they say, what is plainly written does not mean what it says. But then they will say, words
have meaning. Heh. Yes. We clearly see what they are saying, and what they are doing.

 

[Rufus]

they don't see it that way.

they think everyone deserves a fair chance to win eternal life, and believe that if it is up to God rather than man, that means it isn't fair.

forgetting that the very basis of our faith is that everyone already has that chance and everyone fails - - hence the need for Mercy

Since you brought up "mercy", here's a fascinating passage to contemplate and meditate upon:

Luke 1:50-51, 54-55
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."
NIV

So when we read Rom 9:15 that speaks to God's sovereign grace of mercy, now we know precisely what kind of people are recipients of that mercy, i.e. pious, God-fearers.

Verse 54 is particularly intriguing: Who is God's "servant Israel"? On the surface, it might seem like the answer would be national Israel, who certainly was called to serve YHWH, but that doesn't comport well with Israel's checkered history -- a history that instead speaks to national apostasy and covenant-breaking. However, the true, faithful and ultimate "servant Israel" was none other than Christ himself (Isa 49:1ff.).

Moreover, Christ epitomized what it means to Fear God (Isa 11:2-3); and we know that He was shown mercy because the Father raised Him from the dead (Rom 8:11-13). He did not allow his Holy One to see decay (Act 2:27).

And I think v. 55 clinches the identity of this "servant Israel". God remembered to be merciful to Abraham and his descendants forever through the grand patriarch's ultimate seed: Christ through and by whom all eternal, spiritual blessings flow (Gal 3:16) to Abraham's spiritual descendants throughout all eternity, which again makes national/natural Israel the most unlikely descendants being spoken of in this verse.

Just some food for thought....

 

[cv5]

Salvation is a one piece puzzle, and the one piece is God's grace. Therefore, it is only man's vanity that attempts to add another piece to complete it.
Christ's work is complete and lacks nothing! It is finished. . . . .

Dodging the topic and dragging out a red herring meant to distract is standardized Calvinist operating procedure.

The unassailable truth of the matter is that the beneficiaries RECEIVING the OFFER of the covenant (not a "puzzle" but a covenant) DOES in fact complete the legal transaction.

No receivers means no redeemed, no redeemed means no body of Christ, no Bride means no wedding, no millennium no nothing. Nobody gets saved, Gods gracious providence was wasted.

 

[BillyBob]

Some here resent those advancing to take the high ground God wants us to take.
They snipe and snoot.

I would hazard to guess, that each and every verse that you have presented, simply reflects that God's people are enabled to work for Him once they have been saved.
He does not enable them in order to save themselves. That is Christ's work!

What Paul is saying in [1Cor 15:10] is not I, but the grace of God has enabled me.
God does not want anyone to take the high-ground. The high-ground belongs to Him, who saves us by grace alone.
And yes, we resent anyone who tries to take any credit for that work!

 

[Rufus]

that is not what I believe. I believe God reaches out to all ... God's Word is rejected by some ... the ones who do not reject God's Word receive the benefit ... those who reject receive the consequence.





how about "everyone already has that chance and [not] everyone fails" - - and even in that scenario the need for Mercy is not abated.

God tells us in Genesis 3:22 that mankind can know good and evil ... if mankind can know good and God, in His great goodness, has given us His Word ... God's Word is good ... the gospel is the good news ... why do you insist that mankind can only reject when God reaches out?
.

Gen 3:22 does not teach that mankind can know good and God! If that is how your translation reads, you should dump it.

But since you brought up this verse, I have a question for you: Who is the "us" in the phrase "one of us"?

 

[Rufus]

cv5 said:


There are guarantees though....

1Ki 8:23
And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

Psa 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psa 25:10
All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Anybody notice that the "mercy warranty" is made good according to the volitional willingness of the subjects?
Next question: why are these manifold and prodigious lessons demonstrated aforetime for our learning so easily dismissed by the determinists?

No, I do not notice because volition is not in any of the passages you quoted. How come, though, that you haven't noticed that God is merciful to his covenant servants, and that mercy and goodness follow God's chosen people, and that the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth upon only the faithful? You've got your eisegesis down, though, to science!

And what I just said above harmonizes quite nicely with what I just wrote re Luke in my 16,447.

 

[posthuman]

I believe all will cast their crowns at His feet.
.

it would be odd if someone who wouldn't, is getting a crown

 

[Genez]

I would hazard to guess, that each and every verse that you have presented, simply reflects that God's people are enabled to work for Him once they have been saved.
He does not enable them in order to save themselves. That is Christ's work!

What Paul is saying in [1Cor 15:10] is not I, but the grace of God has enabled me.
God does not want anyone to take the high-ground. The high-ground belongs to Him, who saves us by grace alone.
And yes, we resent anyone who tries to take any credit for that work!

Simply enables to work for Him?
Or, Enables to THINK with Him?

Many works are done in the name of God.
All according to how they think in their own understanding how God would have them to do works.

When God says...

"Be still and know that I am God!"

Being still?
Is doing a work of God.

 

[Rufus]

​

Rufus the Doofus.... ​

You are now on Ignore.​

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For after the 20th time?​

You've become totally a predictable bore.​

​

Bye bye, to the gangsta Bible salesman! ​

For it's the same old garbage, every time. ​

​

I bet you didn't know...​

The Holy Sprit knows when to rhyme!​

​

​

bye! ​

Spoken by the quintessential prevaricator on this thread. I'm sure I'll be on "iggy" until you decide once again to remove me.

 

[posthuman]

Romans 1 doesn’t say everyone fails—it says some suppress truth while others retain God in knowledge. John 1:11-12 says some receive Christ, others reject Him. Mercy isn’t deterministic - it’s God’s provision that provides for response.

Romans 3 does.

His wrath does not fall on those to whom He shows mercy

 

[Rufus]

The new covenant is not a contract between God and man, but between Father and Son.

That far too much biblical info for FWers. They would be loathe to believe what you wrote.

 

[Magenta]

What Paul is saying in [1Cor 15:10] is not I, but the grace of God has enabled me.
God does not want anyone to take the high-ground. The high-ground belongs to Him, who saves us by grace alone.
And yes, we resent anyone who tries to take any credit for that work!

Paul opens many of his epistles saying what he does is by the will of God.

He never says, God presented the truth to me and then I was permitted to accept or reject by using my own will..

 

[posthuman]

Getting late so maybe more tomorrow. I'll touch on Rom10 now. If you want to follow up, I'll leave it for you to do so. One piece at a time so no Rom9 or 11 tonight, which actually address hardening.

I don't see a speedbump in Rom10, at least not for the formula I laid out that you seem to say you're not disagreeing with. If there's any speedbump here, it's more of a wall to stop the thinking that God is preventing belief-obedience. By Rom10:3 Paul has identified the issue being one not of zeal but of a lack of knowledge and submission.

Rom10:16-17 and 21 says the issue is disobedience not God hardening or withholding grace or preventing hearing. 10:18-21 show God's persistent efforts at turning Israel and the irony of others who did not have all of Israel's grace provision finding God while Israel turned from Him.

I don't see the hardening I think you're saying is in these verses. I see a people who are described as disobedient-unbelieving & oppositional and God doing several things to turn them back to Him and at the time of writing, to bring them to faith-obedience in His Gospel of His Son.

you don't see judicial hardening in Romans 10 because it's in 11.

the book doesn't actually have chapters; it's all one treatise. arbitrarily taking 1 without 3 or 10 without 11 will skew what the text is saying.

 

[Genez]

Romans 3 does.

His wrath does not fall on those to whom He shows mercy

Could you be less specific, and more generalized, please?

 

[Genez]

Romans 3 does.

His wrath does not fall on those to whom He shows mercy

Romans 1 is speaking of an entirely different type of person and situation.