Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[HigherGospel]

So you deny that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see

No, the devil has.... because they chose to submit themselves to the devil instead of submitting to God.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Let's believe God's Word.... those standing in judgement before the Lord who try to blame the devil for them deciding to reject the Lord so they can live in sin is not going to get them saved.

Only those that overcome will spend eternity with the Lord.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.

 

[HigherGospel]

I'm in the UK, but yeah I understand your concern, but hate goes both ways

The fact of the natter is it's not just the liberals not going to Heaven.... most on the right won't be going to Heaven either.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

their veil was removed, and the seed fell on good soil.

I don't see it as judicial hardening as in Isaiah.

Although there is the look of simultaneity in Paul's verbs, word order looks to make the active voice turning first and the subjunctive shows potential which IMO shows human volition. The Gospel of Christ - the ministry of righteousness 2Cor3:9 - is assumed before the active turning. The ministry of righteousness concerns the exceeding glory of Christ over Moses and the end of the glory of Moses.

my 2¢

2 Corinthians 3:13-15 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Paul was speaking of those who were still living under the Old Covenant ... the vail is done away in Christ (New Covenant) ...


2 Corinthians 3:16-18 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


the Old Covenant was designed to bring folks to Christ (Gal 3:24). So those still living as under the Old Covenant can be brought to Christ under the Old Covenant. When the Old Covenant brings them to Christ ... then the heart can turn to the Lord ... the vail shall be removed ... then when reading Scripture with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I do not see that the vail is removed then the heart turns ... the verse specifically shows when the heart turns, the vail is removed ... however, the heart is or has been acted upon in the reading of the Old Covenant which is designed to bring people to Christ ... this turning/vail removal could be a simultaneous action as God knows all hearts and He can see who is at that point before a person even realizes he or she is at that point.
.

 

[DeanM]

That's false doctrine, sorry. It's commonly found in so called reformed theology which is not biblical.
Jesus was not teaching the OT law to the Jews View attachment 279837

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Those doing this have made Paul in to the idol and are not following the Doctrine of Christ as they reject the Word of Jesus.... which the Lord warns about thru Paul

1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Jesus came for the Jews. The gentile or body of Christ came after Pentecost.

 

[Jordon]

The fact of the natter is it's not just the liberals not going to Heaven.... most on the right won't be going to Heaven either.

natter lol, nice way of putting it.

Trump may be somebody people worship but then are they governed be free will speeches to, they could be deceived by the Armenians.

Or it could be that Christians do accept him as one of there own but they don't worship him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Now go find me a text that teaches that Jesus descended from the first man.

See Luke 3:23-38.

And fyi ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Son of Man is the Messianic title of the Lord Jesus Christ ... so you've got who you refer to as the spawn of satan in the Messianic line ... satan loves it ...
.

 

[HigherGospel]

Jesus came for the Jews. The gentile or body of Christ came after Pentecost.

That does not prove that Jesus was teaching OT law to the Jews.... no, He came to do away with the OT law and establish the New Covenant and with that in mind He was teaching tenants of the New Covenant that He came to establish

Maybe go study the Book of Hebrews and learn more about this topic.

 

[cv5]

View attachment 279835


((crickets))

Calvinistic ***salvation*** via conspiracy and tyranny? Prove it.

I have yet to hear anything compelling from the determinists. Chronister would destroy these determinists BTW. As you well know.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Also, it sounds like you are straddling the fence. Sometimes you make free choices and sometimes you don't. How can you have it both ways? Is this a way of saying you are not responsible, and therefore God has no right to judge? Did the fallen angels have a free choice to rebel? If not then God's condemnation of them is unjust and even cruel. Lots of problems with your point of view

I agree. The central axiom upon which ALL of the early Christian apologists based their arguments was that men, created in the image of God, like God Himself had been granted the ability of self-determination. This was completely different from most of the pagan religions and philosophies of the time.

“Lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a FATAL NECESSITY, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, THEN NEITHER IS ANYTHING AT ALL IN OUR POWER. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions
(Justin Martyr, c. 160AD, 1.177)

 

[cv5]

See Luke 3:23-38.

And fyi ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Son of Man is the Messianic title of the Lord Jesus Christ ... so you've got who you refer to as the spawn of satan in the Messianic line ... satan loves it ...
.

@Rufus surely knows of these passages. What is his motive in denying them?

 

[Magenta]

No, the devil has.... because they chose to submit themselves to the devil instead of submitting to God.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Let's believe God's Word.... those standing in judgement before the Lord who try to blame the devil for them deciding to reject the Lord so they can live in sin is not going to get them saved.

Only those that overcome will spend eternity with the Lord.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.

Uh, the devil is the god of this age, just so you know. Are you another one of those who ascribe to the natural man what is only possible to the spiritual man? If you are alive to and believe God's revealed written Word, you should be able to make a distinction. Many here cannot.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[cv5]

my 2¢

2 Corinthians 3:13-15 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Paul was speaking of those who were still living under the Old Covenant ... the vail is done away in Christ (New Covenant) ...


2 Corinthians 3:16-18 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


the Old Covenant was designed to bring folks to Christ (Gal 3:24). So those still living as under the Old Covenant can be brought to Christ under the Old Covenant. When the Old Covenant brings them to Christ ... then the heart can turn to the Lord ... the vail shall be removed ... then when reading Scripture with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I do not see that the vail is removed then the heart turns ... the verse specifically shows when the heart turns, the vail is removed ... however, the heart is or has been acted upon in the reading of the Old Covenant which is designed to bring people to Christ ... this turning/vail removal could be a simultaneous action as God knows all hearts and He can see who is at that point before a person even realizes he or she is at that point.
.

Well reasoned and well spoken.
And I agree, this would be the proper exegetical treatment. Brings it all home so to speak.

 

[studier]

Funny how determinism thinks it has a lock on the word "efficacious" and uses it pejoratively by attaching it to human volition.

Only in a deterministic mind is it pejorative. I'm actually OK with it. It does what God designed it to do.

Efficacious Grace Offer <> Efficacious Volitional Receipt (aka faith-obedience) <> Efficacious Grace Salvation.

 

[HigherGospel]

natter lol, nice way of putting it.

Trump may be somebody people worship but then are they governed be free will speeches to, they could be deceived by the Armenians.

Or it could be that Christians do accept him as one of there own but they don't worship him.

Well the calvinists are peddling heresy so good luck with all that.

God's Word teaches man has free will. Period.

Or it could be that Christians do accept him as one of there own but they don't worship him.

Trump is not a Christian based on his own words.... they ask him if he had ever repented of his sins and he famously said he had never done anything that he needed to repent of so he's as lost as a goose in a hurricane, not to mention nobody that is born again and being led by the Holy Spirit uses such foul language as Trump does.

He's a follower of Norman Vincent Peale who is a known and proven false teacher so someone needs to reach him with the actual Gospel. All he has now, based on his own words, if the belief that Jesus exists which is faith no better than what devils have because they too believe the Lord exists and tremble in fear (James 2:19)

Here's the video where Trump says he's never asked for forgiveness

 

[Magenta]

The gospel is foolishness to the natural man, since he can neither accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. It is impossible for his incurably wicked heart to grow the seed of God’s Word into the good fruit of faith while he is captive to the will of the devil. Along with the rest of the world who does not know God, he is blinded to the truth and under the power and influence of Satan, rendered incapable of submitting to or obeying God, with Whom he is inherently hostile toward in his mind, for he craves what is contrary to the Spirit. He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, refusing to come into the light because he is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, and his deeds are evil.

 

[Magenta]

The core truths of these verses are some of the favourites for Pelagian heretics and FWers to rewrite, contradict, and/or outright deny.

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 v 6-8 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 v 13-14

 

[HigherGospel]

Uh, the devil is the god of this age, just so you know.

Yes, I'm aware.... but blaming the devil isn't going to cut if before the Lord.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.

Are you another one of those who ascribe to the natural man what is only possible to the spiritual man?

God Himself is the One Who said they are without excuse and that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men..

Feels free to argue with the Lord and explain to Him that He's been misinformed and see how that all works out

 

[Jordon]

I agree. The central axiom upon which ALL of the early Christian apologists based their arguments was that men, created in the image of God, like God Himself had been granted the ability of self-determination. This was completely different from most of the pagan religions and philosophies of the time.

“Lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a FATAL NECESSITY, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, THEN NEITHER IS ANYTHING AT ALL IN OUR POWER. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions
(Justin Martyr, c. 160AD, 1.177)

are you in agreement of this ? Do you really believe people believe that God allows such things it looks like your playing one false idol of against the other here

 

[Magenta]

Yes, I'm aware.... but blaming the devil isn't going to cut if before the Lord.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.

God Himself is the One Who said they are without excuse and that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men..

Feels free to argue with the Lord and explain to Him that He's been misinformed and see how that all works out

So your claim is everyone has eyes to see the glory of Christ even though Scripture says man is blinded to the glory of Christ?

I understand your dilemma. You only accept part of what the Bible teaches.

Hopefully you will grow in knowledge and grace.

2 Corinthians 4 v 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[cv5]

Funny how determinism thinks it has a lock on the word "efficacious" and uses it pejoratively by attaching it to human volition.

Only in a deterministic mind is it pejorative. I'm actually OK with it. It does what God designed it to do.

Efficacious Grace Offer <> Efficacious Volitional Receipt (aka faith-obedience) <> Efficacious Grace Salvation.

Frankly, it seems that every human attribute and capacity is used as a pejorative.