Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

At this point it seems way past appropriate to ask why you so consistently misguide us from the Truth of Scripture.

By not posting Heb3:18 you've negated one of the clearest sections of Scripture that logically and lexically parallel faith and obedience.

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:18-19 NKJ)

That's parallelism Rufus. Unbelief and disobedience are being paralleled because they are so intertwined as to be used synonymously in Scripture. Lexically and logically then, faith is parallel to obedience. Since this is established in Hebrews there's no way to say this parallelism doesn't exist throughout the document. Are you prepared to say that faith is not necessary for salvation because Heb5:9 says salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ?

Paul does the same thing with parallelism in Romans:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16 NKJ)

Paul also treats faith and obedience the same way in Rom1:5 and Rom16:26 with the phrase obedience [of] faith which can be legitimately translated in a few ways that also make faith and obedience essentially synonymous. Based upon Rom10, Heb3, and some other Scriptural reasoning, I and others see this parallelism in these two verses in Romans. So, the translation is essentially faith-obedience.

There is more reasoning to substantiate this.

The simple fact is that you're playing games with Scripture for some reason. Not good at all.

So, you think God is pleased by obedience apart from faith!? In other words, you sympathize with the self-righteous Pharisees of Jesus' day who definitely believed they were the obedient ones of God!

And BTW, is anyone justified by faithless obedience to God!

Also, your insipid theology begs the question big time! Why should anyone be obedient to God? And there's only one correct answer to question: Because He is utterly, totally and completely trustworthy and, therefore, worthy to be believed when He speaks/commands.

The second thing you fail to understand is that faith is a two-sided coin, and the writer to Hebrews certainly understood this! Faithfulness (obedience) flows from faith! It's IMPOSSIBLE to be faithful apart from saving faith residing in a peson's hear! See Heb 11:6. Was not Jesus Chirst Himself God's True and Faithful Servant? Did He not always trust in his Father?

 

[Magenta]

It's pretty funny (not in a good way) that someone gave a thumbs down for posting scripture! View attachment 279834

There are trolls about, but it's also presumptuous of you to think you know why someone gave you a thumbs down reaction... specifically saying it is about the Scriptures you gave is a non sequitur (logical fallacy).

 

[posthuman]

"presuming any talk of God initiating our calling.....as being complete hyper-Calvinism"

All of us believe that God is First Mover and Initiator. No problems there.
But as for this Calvinist business of IMPOSING (rather than RECEIVING) the OFFER (not an offer at all per the Calvinist) of the Covenant of Salvation by force, fraud, conspiracy or pre-birth lottery and shotgun wedding nuttery?

Nope. Unbiblical in every way.

((crickets))

 

[Rufus]

Having genuine faith is being a doer of God's Word, not just a hearer.

It takes obedience to become a doer of the Word.

​

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. ​

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man ​

observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, ​

and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks ​

into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful ​

hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." ​

​

James 1:22-25​

Its not complicated for those whom discover that the Spirit is guiding them.

.

But it takes Faith in order to be Faithful (i.e. a doer)!

 

[Jordon]

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

What this verse is saying is ...

if/when the believer is walking in the flesh, he or she is walking contrary to the Spirit and will not do the things the Spirit would have him or her do.

if/when the believer is walking in the Spirit, he or she is walking contrary to the flesh and will not do the things the flesh would have him or her do.
.

ah alas simplicity I know it well

The idea crossed my mind instead of talking of choice as free will, how about enabling grace of will power to make a choice.

So the will power and unsaved person receives through devine messages to make a choice is sufficient enough for them to make it.

 

[Magenta]

View attachment 279835

((crickets))

That is another thing that some of these Pelagian heretics and free willers lie about, because they equate being spiritually dead with being physically dead and then they will turn around and claim they don't do that when they have told us to go and Preach in cemeteries and talk about corpses walking around... In other words they are not averse to mocking Scripture and scriptual ideas whwn it suuts them, and also show very little understanding of some of the basics of Christianity.

 

[Jordon]

View attachment 279835


((crickets))

Haha did God just dig you out of hole with that one

 

[DeanM]

It's pretty funny (not in a good way) that someone gave a thumbs down for posting scripture! View attachment 279834

A lot of sects have a problem with Paul. They dont understand that some teachings, like all of the OT and most of the NT, were for the Jews. Seems Paul threw a monkey in the wrench for their dogma when Christ sent him to teach the gentiles.

 

[HigherGospel]

as you know theres a lot of people who have the trump hate syndrome

And on the opposite end of the spectrum there are those claiming to be Christians who have idolized Trump and are now walking in the sin of idolatry. That's going to lead to spending eternity in a very hot and tormenting place:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What do you make of verses where it says things like people have been taken captive to do the will of the devil?

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Are you one of these heretics who claim man is free to believe that which he is blinded to when he cannot even comprehend the gospel?

Wow, so you must either not know what God's Word teaches or have chosen to not believe what He says in His Word.... God's Word clearly tells us the grace that brings salvation has come upon ALL men


Romans 5:17,18
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

NOTE - Romans 5:17,18 is clearly telling us that the free gift came upon all men agreeing with Titus 2:11,12

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:

Romans 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Some folks continually don't let what God's Word says to get in the way of what they believe because they follow some religious organization's teaching rather then the Lord. Sad.

 

[Rufus]

That is your chosen erroneous conclusion that makes it easy for you to shut your mind and plug your ears.

What! Since when have you stopped trusting in the efficacious power of your personal "freewill" choice to believe and repent?

 

[Jordon]

And on the opposite end of the spectrum there are those claiming to be Christians who have idolized Trump and are now walking in the sin of idolatry. That's going to lead to spending eternity in a very hot and tormenting place:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I'm in the UK, but yeah I understand your concern, but hate goes both ways

 

[Magenta]

And on the opposite end of the spectrum there are those claiming to be Christians who have idolized Trump and are now walking in the sin of idolatry. That's going to lead to spending eternity in a very hot and tormenting place:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.





Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?




Wow, so you must either not know what God's Word teaches or have chosen to not believe what He says in His Word.... God's Word clearly tells us the grace that brings salvation has come upon ALL men


Romans 5:17,18
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

NOTE - Romans 5:17,18 is clearly telling us that the free gift came upon all men agreeing with Titus 2:11,12

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:

Romans 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Some folks continually don't let what God's Word says to get in the way of what they believe because they follow some religious organization's teaching rather then the Lord. Sad.

So you deny that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the glory of Christ. I understand.

 

[Rufus]

The better question:
Why and how were 3000 Jews saved in Acts 2 and untold millions throughout the ages to this present day?

Answering this question will resolve yours. Gods OFFER is still pending and FREELY given, and many are they who CHOOSE to RECEIVE it in good FAITH.

"Already believing" not a prerequisite BTW. Never has been, never will be.

For born again believers that easy answer: They were saved by God's efficacious grace. But for all others, they were saved by the efficacious power of their own "freewill" decisions.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That is exactly how you folks act when we harmonize parallel verses together in a way that exemplifies a unified Biblical message.

I went through one of your panels and discussed the verses you ripped from the context in order to "harmonize" ...

here

here

you never responded ... you never indicated why you disagree with what was revealed to you in examining the verses ...

in effect, you reveal that you are not interested in discussing Scripture ... you are only interested in calling your brothers and sisters in Christ "FWers" or "freewillers" or "Pelagian heretics" or liars (the list goes on and on) ... all in stark contrast to the behavior God describes in Scripture concerning how members in Christ's body are to behave toward on another.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

People have to hear first. Not everybody hears. Jesus said so. You should believe what Jesus says over your carnal thinking.

where did Jesus state that "people have to hear" the gospel "first" ... or that "not everybody hears" the gospel ... and I'm talking specifically about the gospel, Magenta. Show the verse that refers specficially to the gospel. Thank you.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

FW'ers: Look at me!
Reformed: Why me?

whether FW'er or Reformed ... should be: Look at/to/upon the Lord Jesus Christ!!!
.

 

[HigherGospel]

A lot of sects have a problem with Paul. They dont understand that some teachings, like all of the OT and most of the NT, were for the Jews. Seems Paul threw a monkey in the wrench for their dogma when Christ sent him to teach the gentiles.

That's false doctrine, sorry. It's commonly found in so called reformed theology which is not biblical.
Jesus was not teaching the OT law to the Jews

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Those doing this have made Paul in to the idol and are not following the Doctrine of Christ as they reject the Word of Jesus.... which the Lord warns about thru Paul

1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[Rufus]

People have to hear first. Not everybody hears. Jesus said so. You should believe what Jesus says over your carnal thinking.

Carnal reasoning is a FWer's final authority of what to be believe. And this accounts for the multitude of theological problems that arise out of their heresy.

 

[studier]

So, you think God is pleased by obedience apart from faith!?

Quite the opposite of what I wrote. No surprise.

 

[NightTwister]

whether FW'er or Reformed ... should be: Look at/to/upon the Lord Jesus Christ!!!
.

Yet you constantly look at yourselves as part of the solution. I don't. I only look at/to/upon the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation. It is all of Him.