Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

If the individual receiving the word of God is operating from a heart that has not been changed, he is operating according to the flesh and will not obey. If he is operating from a new heart, and by the Spirit he will.

A lot of people who are not born again believe Scripture, Cameron143. A lot of people believe "God created the heavens and the earth" ... "you shall not steal" ... "you shall not murder" ... "children obey your parents", etc., etc. So the Scripture can be believed before a person is born again (which is when the new heart is given by God).

Read Ezekiel 36:26-27 afresh. God gives a new heart and new spirit as well as His Spirit. The resulting effect is that the individual will obey. Before God does this, they are not subject to the law, neither can they be. The new heart and spirit, and the Spirit are what makes an individual subject to the law.

in agreement that as we continue to grow in grace and submit to the leading of Holy Spirit, it becomes easier to overcome the lusts of the flesh.

However, that does not negate the fact the the Word of God is life ... and whenever anyone believes verses in Scripture, that Scripture which is believed is life to that person even if that person is not born again. All Scripture is a living Word and imparts life to those who believe.
.

 

[Magenta]

I've thought about it for quite some time as I'm pretty certain you and others have. Some thoughts: The test in the Garden and the challenge put forth was of willful submission to God or of autonomy (you'll be like God) which by definition is ultimately disobedience to God. IMO, the obedience part of faith is not focused on enough. There is no biblical faith apart from obedience. So, we're right back to the Garden issue of submission vs. autonomy. When Jesus gave His most emphasized lesson according to John4:20-24 He was emphatic (used the word "proskuneo" 8x in 4 verses) that God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth. Proskuneo is a word re: reverent submission - obedience. Again, submission vs. autonomy. Jesus learned and lived in perfect obedience to our Father and was perfected Heb5:6-9 and became the cause-source of salvation for all who obey Him. "Christ" as in "YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ/King" per Ps2 which Paul used to evangelize, insures we all know our belief in the Christ/King is submission vs. autonomy. He says in 1Cor3 that Jesus is the Christ (YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ/King) is the foundation of the Gospel. This just continues throughout all of Scripture. At the heart of the issue of the Gospel is one of submission or rejection of ultimate and absolute authority. Jesus said this is at the heart of who God is seeking. We can tie volitional obedience to Faith, to Love, to knowing God, and to many other if not all of the important words and concepts we deal with in the NC. It's simply the reversal of the Garden. Jesus was first and will always remain first-born. He's saving as siblings those who obey Him.So the discussion becomes, why don't many submit to Him?

Scripture tells us (Romans 8:7) but FWers contradict and deny what Scripture says. And rewrite the verses you don't like, such as 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, and his lie was that she could be as God.

God agreed with the assessment that they could be like Him to know good and evil. Try again.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now,
lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” Genesis 3:22

 

[BillyBob]

studier added vs 8 to what Billybob submitted from Titus 3:

Billybob #15880

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

studier #15904

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.​

studier did not insert "something that was not there originally as written by Paul".

studier added what was written by Paul which Billybob did not include.
.

It is not what was added that I object to, it is trying to combine two different things to alter the meaning.
The verse which was added: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Is a totally different subject, and has nothing to do with verse 5.
In verse 8, Paul is telling Titus – and, when you come across those who already been brought to faith, remind them that it is important to maintain good works!

 

[cv5]

I gave those scriptures as proof that your statement that the Holy Spirit is ONLY in believers was incorrect. Proof given. Now you're just saying the same thing I am. It's not that the Bible is inaccurate, it's that your original statement is false. You said it was a "special case", but provided no proof of that. This is why people can't discuss things with you because you can't follow the logic of a simple argument. Then you go off arrogant and bearing false witness against others. Who here is the real joke? It's not me.

I take it that you went AWOL and missed the in-depth multi-month lecture series on the variety of factors pertaining to the various fillings and indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Give it 5 years or so. Maybe you will figure it out....if you are WILLING.

 

[Cameron143]

As I explain in Salvation by Grace, regeneration refers to that “work of the Holy Spirit to unite the elect sinner to Christ by breathing new life into that dead and depraved sinner so as to raise him from spiritual death to spiritual life, removing his heart of stone and giving him a heart of flesh, so that he is washed, born from above and now able to repent and trust in Christ as a new creation.”

It should also be added that “regeneration is the act of God alone and therefore it is monergistic in nature, accomplished by the sovereign act of the Spirit apart from and unconditioned upon man’s will to believe. In short, man’s faith does not cause regeneration but regeneration causes man’s faith” (127).
Calvinist Website


Why this is wrong.


No one is united with Christ before they are justified (God's legal pardon). This is also wrong because it changes Paul's doctrine of the justification of the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) into justification of the reborn. X

Why this is wrong:
...hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world...
Unless you believe in Christ doesn't mean united with Christ.

 

[BillyBob]

Zero Calvinism anywhere in Titus chapter 3......rather it is yet a stunning commentary on mans free will.

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men."

ALL of chapter 3 is volitional in content.
One may CHOOSE to comply, or dismiss and suffer the consequences.

-"careful to maintain good works"
diligently following this command a matter of individual volitional.

-"who have believed in God"
diligently following this command a matter of individual volitional.

The end.

Please watch

 

[Magenta]

Please watch

No kidding! Willingly co-operating with God after coming to believe does not address or equate to the process that precedes it.

In fact it is part of the ongoing process of sanctification.

How is it FWers cannot see this?

 

[Cameron143]

A lot of people who are not born again believe Scripture, Cameron143. A lot of people believe "God created the heavens and the earth" ... "you shall not steal" ... "you shall not murder" ... "children obey your parents", etc., etc. So the Scripture can be believed before a person is born again (which is when the new heart is given by God).





in agreement that as we continue to grow in grace and submit to the leading of Holy Spirit, it becomes easier to overcome the lusts of the flesh.

However, that does not negate the fact the the Word of God is life ... and whenever anyone believes verses in Scripture, that Scripture which is believed is life to that person even if that person is not born again. All Scripture is a living Word and imparts life to those who believe.
.

Sure. Man has a conscience and a mind. They can believe things and be convicted that things that are true. But he remains the arbiter of truth and only understands and acts according to his vile and desperately heart. His faculties are still present, but are corrupted. So he may adopt murder as wrong on a personal level as he has decided, he doesn't believe it because God has deemed it so or believe the moral arguments behind it.

 

[HeIsHere]

Why this is wrong:
...hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world...
Unless you believe in Christ doesn't mean united with Christ.

Clear verses always stand first.
Conversion happens in real time, every born again Christian knows this.

This must be understood within what is already clearly explained in scripture.
Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

In context...

1) Because of of foreknowledge God had an eternal plan - a scheme of redemption for those who will believe it.
2) The blessing is not being chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, but the blessing to be chosen in Christ to be holy and without blame in the future.
3) We become God's children by our faith in the Good News of Christ Jesus (v. 5). God adopts us into His family upon our obedience to the Good News (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-6).
4) The counsel of God's will (v. 11) refers to His decision to send Jesus to redeem the obedient.
5) “us” as “us who believe” (v.19)

No individuals or group of persons existed before the foundation of the world to be chosen between except the members of the Godhead.




"Unless you believe in Christ doesn't mean united with Christ."

Do not know what you man by this.

 

[Cameron143]

Clear verses always stand first.
Conversion happens in real time, every born again Christian knows this.

This must be understood within what is already clearly explained in scripture.
Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

In context...

1) Because of of foreknowledge God had an eternal plan - a scheme of redemption for those who will believe it.
2) The blessing is not being chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, but the blessing to be chosen in Christ to be holy and without blame in the future.
3) We become God's children by our faith in the Good News of Christ Jesus (v. 5). God adopts us into His family upon our obedience to the Good News (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-6).
4) The counsel of God's will (v. 11) refers to His decision to send Jesus to redeem the obedient.
5) “us” as “us who believe” (v.19)

No individuals or group of persons existed before the foundation of the world to be chosen between except the members of the Godhead.




"Unless you believe in Christ doesn't mean united with Christ."

Do not know what you man by this.

The verse doesn't say God chose those who believe to be...
This is what you have assumed into the verse. I have already explained to you how God chooses and why. You can neglect it if you like.

 

[cv5]

No one is united with Christ before they are justified (God's legal pardon). This is also wrong because it changes Paul's doctrine of the justification of the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) into justification of the reborn. X

Further, no one is united to Christ until they say "I do" (an act of volition persuant to informed consent) to the OFFER of the marriage covenant.

 

[cv5]

Why this is wrong:
...hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world...
Unless you believe in Christ doesn't mean united with Christ.

Eph 1:4 has been thoroughly de-Calvinized on this thread. Many times. As you well know.

Repeating dogma endlessly is all you have left.

 

[Jordon]

I am in the USA at the moment. There's a big denomination trying to kick Revival off from the shooting of Charlie Kirk.

In Israel ?
It was sad what happened to Charlie.
I know his wife is definitely in a bad place at the moment. But this revival I'm not so sure I can promote it to be honest, as people are extremely annoyed at the moment,

It's never going to happen anyway for simple reasons that parts of Charlie's legacy was he would write to all the churches to try and get them to take part in all his policies and beliefs, but he could never get any churches to aid him in his policies.

Charlie was anti abortion, that's never going to change and churches will not take part in world affairs.

 

[Jordon]

I am in the USA at the moment. There's a big denomination trying to kick Revival off from the shooting of Charlie Kirk.

the other about Charlie's legacy it was all about getting American Christians to vote based on Christian values.

And when he did his survey he found that only 1 percent of Christians where actually turning up to vote

 

[Cameron143]

Eph 1:4 has been thoroughly de-Calvinized on this thread. Many times. As you well know.

Repeating dogma endlessly is all you have left.

Obviously, you aren't very convincing.

 

[Genez]

What you really mean is my version is more accurate than Paul's

You really think you are that astute to make such a claim?

Without exegetical teaching, we have no idea what Paul taught in many cases.
Did you know that Paul wrote in the Greek with a great deal of ellipsis?
That he would switch over into classical Greek, away from the Koine?
That translators have missed the point in making Paul's points clear?

Sure... you understand Paul?
Even Peter found Paul's actual writings to be difficult to understand!

​

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as ​

our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God ​

gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in ​

them of these matters. ​

​

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, ​

which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the ​

other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16​

Very few can exegete Paul accurately with understanding and depth.

God will always provide for those who have stopped playing competitive games with Christianity.

Here is one teacher I found with the capacity to do so.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

It becomes a real eye-opener to find out how deficient and superficial mainstream translations can be.
To find out how much we were not aware of from simplified English translations designed for baby Christians
to begin their walk with.

Grace and peace....

 

[NightTwister]

They were believers.

You can't be the Priest who goes into the Holy of Holies without being a true believer in God.

Are you touched or something because you think it's possible for a Priest to go into the Holy of Holies and not be a believer?

You need to sit the pipe down and leave that alone

None of what you said has anything to do with this discussion. John never entered the Holy of Holies. You just throw out unrelated stuff thinking it makes your point.
I'm allergic to stuff in that pipe, so I don't use it. It seems you might be hitting it though.

 

[HeIsHere]

The verse doesn't say God chose those who believe to be...
This is what you have assumed into the verse. I have already explained to you how God chooses and why. You can neglect it if you like.

Oh I know about how verses are isolated to make it fit the system.

God’s purpose is to bring into being a people who have been saved by grace through faith.
It is NOT God’s purpose to preselect those who will respond to His irresistible gracious offer.

The purposes of God are seen to begin when we are ‘in Him’ which is another concept the Reformed have mistaken.
All those who place their faith and trust in God are predestined to become ….. adopted sons of the Father.
So we are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, yes, but we are not ‘in Him’ before the foundation of the world are we!
That would mean that we were already predestined before we were ‘lost’ and then somehow ‘found’ again.

The whole thrust of scriptural teaching is that of ourselves we are not able to be chosen by God but that Jesus was. Everything we have is only through and in Him.

Our response it to believe it.

Ephesians 1:4 demolished in the larger context.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[NightTwister]

I take it that you went AWOL and missed the in-depth multi-month lecture series on the variety of factors pertaining to the various fillings and indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Give it 5 years or so. Maybe you will figure it out....if you are WILLING.

Your odd mix of heresy and heterodoxy simply doesn't interest me. Not now, not in 5 years.