Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[HeIsHere]

Nicely said!

I've heard some explain the renewal of the mind as re-engineering it, restructuring it, rebuilding it. The foundational thought being Jesus is the Christ, the only foundation that can be built upon. From there, gold, silver, precious stones - accurate doctrines.

BTW, when Paul's writing 1Cor2, we can keep in mind that he's had this done to him, and this is the perspective he's writing from - extensive restructuring from foundation then up with quality materials - doctrines - thoughts.

I agree, yes indeed, it is all about Jesus,
As well, I think the foundational biblical starting point is God is LOVE.
All attributes of God are within this foundational first principle of God.

This is where the Reformed theology does err profoundly!
This ties into salvation being a gift freely offered to whomsoever will believe.

1) By logical necessity the person must have the will to accept or reject what it being offered. The act of accepting a gift which is offered cannot take place without will and volition.

2) If God regenerates first (gives a new heart, gifts faith, gifts hearing blah blah blah) THEN it is not a gift.

Without having the capacity to accept or receive anything, the concept of a “gift” becomes truly meaningless in every possible sense of the word. A gift is offered freely, never forced which ties into the character of God being LOVE.

If salvation is a gift, it suggests that God does not force belief, but offers eternal life, leaving room for a voluntary response.

The reformed doctrine (TULIP) is so obviously, painfully false, it just makes me wonder about the motives of those who push it.

Appreciate any feedback on the concept of the gift and its connection to personal volition, since I know you were posting about volition a while back.

 

[lrs68]

No, that is not what you said in your first post. This is what you said it in post 15,695", which initiated the discussion:

"I believe the moment you Repent like the Bible says then you are Regenerated [which is saved because you are filled with the Holy Ghost]. "

My point was the opposite of that - that true repentance is from God not man. As such, it is given as a byproduct of salvation as a free gift- not as a product of man's choices nor does it cause salvation, as stated by your post.

The Bible is proof, just not your interpretation or application of it. It's no wonder why you believe as you do!

1. Angel appears to Zachariah and proclaims he will have a son that will be used by God mightily and will prepare the way for the coming Messiah

2. Luke tells us John in the womb is full of the Holy Ghost

3. Elizabeth carrying John filled with the Holy Ghost is also filled with the Holy Ghost

And all I did was quote these Verses and nothing else and you claim misunderstanding.

So you actually said the Bible that I quoted is incorrect.

Your beliefs are a joke!

 

[lrs68]

No, that is not what you said in your first post. This is what you said it in post 15,695", which initiated the discussion:

"I believe the moment you Repent like the Bible says then you are Regenerated [which is saved because you are filled with the Holy Ghost]. "

My point was the opposite of that - that true repentance is from God not man. As such, it is given as a byproduct of salvation as a free gift- not as a product of man's choices nor does it cause salvation, as stated by your post.

God gives Repentance to those who Repent. The Gentiles repented and God gave it to them. This is not rocket science its how it happens every single time someone repents and God gives them Repentance.

 

[lrs68]

Are you in Israel today,
Do the busy town streets really go as quiet as I've seen them go on YouTube today, still there

I am in the USA at the moment. There's a big denomination trying to kick Revival off from the shooting of Charlie Kirk.

 

[Cameron143]

What you really mean is my version is more accurate than Paul's

His version only has the Spirit convicting equaling informing.

 

[Magenta]

Appreciate any feedback on the concept of the gift and its connection to personal volition, since I know you were posting about volition a while back.

When God gives me something I do not need to do anything to accept it. It is given. Like life... I have it.

And your guru there is so blind he thinks he needs to use his volition to decide to believe what he already believes.

It is pretty much the height of logic you guys reach with your self-exalting theology.

 

[rogerg]

God gives Repentance to those who Repent. The Gentiles repented and God gave it to them. This is not rocket science its how it happens every single time someone repents and God gives them Repentance.

Patently absurd - I'm calling 911 for you - come back after you've successfully completed therapy and we can talk then.

 

[NightTwister]

1. Angel appears to Zachariah and proclaims he will have a son that will be used by God mightily and will prepare the way for the coming Messiah

2. Luke tells us John in the womb is full of the Holy Ghost

3. Elizabeth carrying John filled with the Holy Ghost is also filled with the Holy Ghost

And all I did was quote these Verses and nothing else and you claim misunderstanding.

So you actually said the Bible that I quoted is incorrect.

Your beliefs are a joke!

I gave those scriptures as proof that your statement that the Holy Spirit is ONLY in believers was incorrect. Proof given. Now you're just saying the same thing I am. It's not that the Bible is inaccurate, it's that your original statement is false. You said it was a "special case", but provided no proof of that. This is why people can't discuss things with you because you can't follow the logic of a simple argument. Then you go off arrogant and bearing false witness against others. Who here is the real joke? It's not me.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You can insert this point of first believing in the past into verse 5 "not by works of righteousness
we have done - but by believing in Him - according to His mercy He saved us...

^ What you did... You added to the added verse by inserting something that was
not there originally as written by Paul and are now being dishonest about it?

studier added vs 8 to what Billybob submitted from Titus 3:

Billybob #15880

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

studier #15904

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.​

studier did not insert "something that was not there originally as written by Paul".

studier added what was written by Paul which Billybob did not include.
.

 

[Genez]

Nicely said!

I've heard some explain the renewal of the mind as re-engineering it, restructuring it, rebuilding it. The foundational thought being Jesus is the Christ, the only foundation that can be built upon. From there, gold, silver, precious stones - accurate doctrines.

BTW, when Paul's writing 1Cor2, we can keep in mind that he's had this done to him, and this is the perspective he's writing from - extensive restructuring from foundation then up with quality materials - doctrines - thoughts.

Edify - edification - construction = Building up one another in the Word.

Build up the other, and you become a part of a stronger building yourself.

When we benefit another, we benefit ourselves.
For we are One Body!

Here's a variety pack.... Philippians 2:3

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves.​

​

Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. ​

​

Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. ​

​

Do nothing out of rivalry or vanity; but, in humility, regard each other as better than yourselves.​

​

Do nothing out of rivalry or conceit, but in humility consider others as more important than yourselves.​

​

Here is telling us what we are seeing manifested here is a normal part of the process that will seem distasteful just the same.

Very important to realize!

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, ​

and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be factions among you to show which ​

of you have God’s approval." 1 Corinthians 11:18-19​

That is God's way of pruning the fruit tree!

Pruning a tree involves cutting away dead, damaged, or diseased branches
to promote healthy growth and improve its shape.

In part?
That is why we find among ourselves "cutting each other down!"

 

[studier]

Yes but I don't think that really answers why one is willing to submit and another unwilling. You and I look at Christ and see great beauty and glory and all manner of wonderful things yet there are those who look at Christ and abhor that same beauty and I'm not speaking of those who are simply ignorant and/or misinformed. It goes beyond thinking the Gospel is foolishness, they think it evil.

Can you in all honesty understand such a person? (assuming you have met at least one person like that in your life) I know I certainly can't.

I've thought about it for quite some time as I'm pretty certain you and others have.

Some thoughts:

The test in the Garden and the challenge put forth was of willful submission to God or of autonomy (you'll be like God) which by definition is ultimately disobedience to God.

IMO, the obedience part of faith is not focused on enough. There is no biblical faith apart from obedience. So, we're right back to the Garden issue of submission vs. autonomy.

When Jesus gave His most emphasized lesson according to John4:20-24 He was emphatic (used the word "proskuneo" 8x in 4 verses) that God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth. Proskuneo is a word re: reverent submission - obedience. Again, submission vs. autonomy.

Jesus learned and lived in perfect obedience to our Father and was perfected Heb5:6-9 and became the cause-source of salvation for all who obey Him.

"Christ" as in "YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ/King" per Ps2 which Paul used to evangelize, insures we all know our belief in the Christ/King is submission vs. autonomy. He says in 1Cor3 that Jesus is the Christ (YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ/King) is the foundation of the Gospel.

This just continues throughout all of Scripture.

At the heart of the issue of the Gospel is one of submission or rejection of ultimate and absolute authority. Jesus said this is at the heart of who God is seeking. We can tie volitional obedience to Faith, to Love, to knowing God, and to many other if not all of the important words and concepts we deal with in the NC. It's simply the reversal of the Garden. Jesus was first and will always remain first-born. He's saving as siblings those who obey Him.

So the discussion becomes, why don't many submit to Him?

 

[cv5]

In Paul's letter to Titus we find the follow words beginning in 3:3

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Please point out one single thing that was done by man to [become heirs according to the hope of eternal life]. Everything was accomplished by God alone!

Does this mean the requirements/actions by man were not mentioned just for ease of reading?

No Paul is saying we also were sinners, but look at what God did for us!

Zero Calvinism anywhere in Titus chapter 3......rather it is yet a stunning commentary on mans free will.

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men."

ALL of chapter 3 is volitional in content.
One may CHOOSE to comply, or dismiss and suffer the consequences.

-"careful to maintain good works"
diligently following this command a matter of individual volitional.

-"who have believed in God"
diligently following this command a matter of individual volitional.

The end.

 

[lrs68]

Patently absurd - I'm calling 911 for you - come back after you've successfully completed therapy and we can talk then.

You do realize the Gentile you are talking about the Bible says he prayed month after month and finally God sent Peter to him. So before he was given Repentance he first prayed for it for months and months.

So either you don't understand your English Bible or you just make stuff up which is the same as LYING. If anyone needs a shrink it's the one who doesn't read the entire story but only cherry picks the last verse in the combination of many verses. That is called lying and manipulating.

 

[studier]

What you really mean is my version is more accurate than Paul's

What I mean is I think what I stated is what Paul states elsewhere and that we have to draw upon his other writings. I think you're treating Titus3 as if Paul hasn't taught us anything else.

 

[HeIsHere]

As I explain in Salvation by Grace, regeneration refers to that “work of the Holy Spirit to unite the elect sinner to Christ by breathing new life into that dead and depraved sinner so as to raise him from spiritual death to spiritual life, removing his heart of stone and giving him a heart of flesh, so that he is washed, born from above and now able to repent and trust in Christ as a new creation.”

It should also be added that “regeneration is the act of God alone and therefore it is monergistic in nature, accomplished by the sovereign act of the Spirit apart from and unconditioned upon man’s will to believe. In short, man’s faith does not cause regeneration but regeneration causes man’s faith” (127).
Calvinist Website


Why this is wrong.


No one is united with Christ before they are justified (God's legal pardon). This is also wrong because it changes Paul's doctrine of the justification of the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) into justification of the reborn. X

 

[HeIsHere]

Zero Calvinism anywhere in Titus chapter 3......rather it is yet a stunning commentary on mans free will.

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men."

ALL of chapter 3 is volitional in content.
One may CHOOSE to comply, or dismiss and suffer the consequences.

-"careful to maintain good works"
diligently following this command a matter of individual volitional.

-"who have believed in God"
diligently following this command a matter of individual volitional.

The end.

Agree......this doctrine of TULIP is so over, completely done.

 

[rogerg]

You do realize the Gentile you are talking about the Bible says he prayed month after month and finally God sent Peter to him. So before he was given Repentance he first prayed for it for months and months.

So either you don't understand your English Bible or you just make stuff up which is the same as LYING. If anyone needs a shrink it's the one who doesn't read the entire story but only cherry picks the last verse in the combination of many verses. That is called lying and manipulating.

You need help.

 

[lrs68]

I gave those scriptures as proof that your statement that the Holy Spirit is ONLY in believers was incorrect. Proof given. Now you're just saying the same thing I am. It's not that the Bible is inaccurate, it's that your original statement is false. You said it was a "special case", but provided no proof of that. This is why people can't discuss things with you because you can't follow the logic of a simple argument. Then you go off arrogant and bearing false witness against others. Who here is the real joke? It's not me.

They were believers.

You can't be the Priest who goes into the Holy of Holies without being a true believer in God.

Are you touched or something because you think it's possible for a Priest to go into the Holy of Holies and not be a believer?

You need to sit the pipe down and leave that alone

 

[studier]

Believing the lies of Satan vs believing the Truth?

Knowing full well that the one is evil and the other good.

Yes, and his lie was that she could be as God.

 

[lrs68]

You need help.

You definitely do. You don't even know what Cornelius did for months before God sent Peter to him. You just lie one after another. You need more than help you need God!