Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

I know that is what you believe Cameron and that is exactly what I said. You have to be saved in order to believe. It is impossible for you to believe without being saved first. Not sure what more salvation you want if regeneration and a new nature isn't enough salvation for you.

It's the horse before the cart.

Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

You don't get it. One is saved upon belief. Regeneration isn't salvation. It is the impartation of life. You equate the two. I don't.

 

[sawdust]

Non-responsive. You claimed reformed doctrine teaches something it does not. Why do you lie?

Why do you not explain the error instead of throwing out accusations?

 

[sawdust]

Reformed theology doesn't say that. More lies.

Again, more accusations but no explanations. So sad.

 

[sawdust]

You seem to be wrong. In fact, you once again misrepresent reformed doctrine. Why must you continue to lie?

Why must you continue to accuse but never bother making correction in love?

 

[sawdust]

@sawdust



agreed, because they become believers as a result of Him dying for them and redeeming them out of unbelief.

Christ died for the sin of rejecting Him, so that sin is taken away and replaced with Faith

Not all all become believers.

Christ died for rejecting Him. He would have had to go to the lake of fire permanently if He died for that as that is the punishment for rejecting Christ.

He endured spiritual death (being forsaken by God) and physical death for that is the wages of sin.

 

[NightTwister]

Why do you not explain the error instead of throwing out accusations?

It's been explained before. Are you willing to listen now, or do you prefer to keep misrepresenting us?

 

[NightTwister]

Again, more accusations but no explanations. So sad.

Whenever you're ready to listen.

 

[Cameron143]

No, I have never said the carnal man is subject to God's law. I have repeatedly stated he needs God's grace (which is real power at work) to overcome the flesh. How do you think you can walk as a Christian apart from God's grace to overcome the sin nature within? That nature has not gone anywhere, it still resides in the flesh but somehow you think God can't do that unless He first saves you. Powerful enough to do all that is required in salvation but not powerful enough to free you long enough to give you opportunity to respond from your own soul of your own volition. You do God no justice by such thinking.

The Gospel is the power unto salvation. You have a man saved in order to be saved. You just can't or won't see it.

You haven't stated it in those words, but if a man hasn't been converted from natural and carnal to spiritual, he remains carnal. And the carnal man is not subject to the law of God and can't be. It's only as God's grace not only withholds the flesh, but changes a man altogether that he is no longer carnal.

 

[sawdust]

You don't get it. One is saved upon belief. Regeneration isn't salvation. It is the impartation of life. You equate the two. I don't.

I know you don't see regeneration as being saved. That's the problem. We are dead in our sin (spiritually dead) and we need to be made spiritually alive but when that happens, for whatever reason, you cannot/will not see that as being saved from death. Somehow you still think the person is dead in their sin and must be saved. It's crazy thought!

 

[NightTwister]

Why must you continue to accuse but never bother making correction in love?

Regeneration (spiritually alive) --> Faith (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God) --> Belief --> Salvation. There's no "saved" event at regeneration. Actually, the only thing we disagree on is when someone is made spiritually alive. The rest of the steps are exactly the same for FW'ers & Reformed.

FW'ers believe there's some spiritual life in everyone, enough for the other steps to take place. Reformers believe there is no spiritual life until the Holy Spirit makes that happen.

Are you going to accept this correction in love?

 

[Cameron143]

I know you don't see regeneration as being saved. That's the problem. We are dead in our sin (spiritually dead) and we need to be made spiritually alive but when that happens, for whatever reason, you cannot/will not see that as being saved from death. Somehow you still think the person is dead in their sin and must be saved. It's crazy thought!

Well now you are simply being deliberately ignorant. Grace and peace.

 

[sawdust]

It's been explained before. Are you willing to listen now, or do you prefer to keep misrepresenting us?

And it's those prior explanations I have been going on. God sovereignly chooses whoever He wills to save, damn the rest.

Is there another basis for who He chooses to save?

 

[NightTwister]

And it's those prior explanations I have been going on. God sovereignly chooses whoever He wills to save, damn the rest.

Is there another basis for who He chooses to save?

See post #15,150

 

[sawdust]

Whenever you're ready to listen.

It's funny how you make me responsible for hearing when it suits you but when it comes to the Gospel it simply isn't possible for a man to hear even though God gives far more grace in that one moment than you have shown throughout this whole thread.

 

[NightTwister]

It's funny how you make me responsible for hearing when it suits you but when it comes to the Gospel it simply isn't possible for a man to hear even though God gives far more grace in that one moment than you have shown throughout this whole thread.

Because you repeatedly misrepresent after being corrected. Why would I think you'll receive this latest correction?

 

[sawdust]

You haven't stated it in those words,

How many words do you need? Strewth! My son complains I explain things in too many different ways and says he gets me the first time ... and he isn't even a believer but it makes sense to him even though he still chooses to reject it. (sad to say )

The point of the Gospel is to get him from carnal to spiritual, not to be served up after the fact. The Gospel is the doorway into spirituality.

 

[Cameron143]

How many words do you need? Strewth! My son complains I explain things in too many different ways and says he gets me the first time ... and he isn't even a believer but it makes sense to him even though he still chooses to reject it. (sad to say )

The point of the Gospel is to get him from carnal to spiritual, not to be served up after the fact. The Gospel is the doorway into spirituality.

Spiritual life is the gateway to spirituality. Belief is the gateway to salvation.

 

[sawdust]

Regeneration (spiritually alive) --> Faith (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God) --> Belief --> Salvation. There's no "saved" event at regeneration.

Being made spiritually alive isn't being saved from death? So, what then? Made alive but still dead in your sin?

FW'ers believe there's some spiritual life in everyone,

Who said that? Maybe some on this thread think man still has a spirit but it is non functional from what I understand of what they have said. So no, unbelievers are carnal and will always follow in those steps without God's grace to intervene and initiate. I don't think there is an advocate of free will in this thread who would disagree with that last sentence.

Reformers believe there is no spiritual life until the Holy Spirit makes that happen.

Are you going to accept this correction in love?

I don't need the correction for I already believe that.

 

[sawdust]

Well now you are simply being deliberately ignorant. Grace and peace.

No I'm not. You have sated regeneration is not being saved. Explain how you can be made alive and not be saved from death?

This is typical of you. As soon as you are shown your arguments don't make sense you fold and run away.

 

[sawdust]

Spiritual life is the gateway to spirituality. Belief is the gateway to salvation.

But you have belief after salvation! So how can you say belief is the gateway to salvation. Is regeneration and a new nature not enough salvation to you? What more must happen after belief in order to be saved?