Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

Well we had better add this permutation of hearing and not hearing.
Whatever the flavor of the grammar, it is the INTENT of the heart, FREE WILL and CHOICE that divide the hearers, non-hearers, doers and non-doers, choosers and non-choosers.

[Act 7:54 KJV]
When they heard (akouō) G191 these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

The KJV translates Strong's G191 in the following manner: hear (418x), hearken (6x), give audience (3x), hearer (2x), miscellaneous (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. to hear something
   1. to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
   2. to get by hearing learn
   3. a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
   4. to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
   5. to comprehend, to understand

And see the verb you're defining in Rom10:14, then go to the noun form of the same word in Rom10:16-17 as @Kroogz posted, then go to the verb form again in Rom10:18.

Put it all together and it's very clearly just telling us God spoke Good News > men proclaim that Good News which God spoke > people hear that Good News > some believe/obey that Good News and some don't.

Then look at Rom10:18 and see that Paul clarifies it's just about hearing the voice/the sound which IMO puts @Cameron143 distinction about "audible" hearing to rest.

This is all about audible hearing beginning with men who audibly heard God speak His Good News and who were sent to audibly proclaim His Good News to others could audibly hear His Good news and obey His Good News and thus obey Him / believe His Good News and thus believe Him. And this belief/obedience is called Faith. And Faith FROM something heard/the Gospel and something heard/the Gospel THROUGH [a] spoken word/statement of/from God.

This is part of the problem with this Reformed interpretation. It's coming back into Rom10 and redefining very basic words.

 

[Kroogz]

1Peter 1:25

But the word of the Lord abideth for ever. And this is the word of good tidings which was preached unto you.

Hebrews 4:12

"....It (the Word of God) judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart"

It seems to me what one's heart chooses to do with the Word is what the Word judges.

I agree. @Genez Has brought up the FACT that His Grace/Word/Gospel is able to divide the soul from the flesh so we can make a true and informed decision about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Most overlook the final statement in Heb 4:12

 

[Magenta]

This is all about audible hearing beginning with men who audibly heard God speak His Good News and who were sent to audibly proclaim His Good News to others could audibly hear His Good news and obey His Good News and thus obey Him / believe His Good News and thus believe Him

Yeah, great, except you speak of obeying when Scripture says the unregenerated man cannot submit.

Of course you ignore that. You must in order to uphold your vain self-exalting doctrine.

The unregenerated person does not have the mind of the Spirit.

Being "of the world" they cannot even receive the Spirit of Truth. They must be called out first.

Romans 8 v 6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Psalm 127:3-5 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
.

amen children are the frosting on the cake was just kidding

 

[Magenta]

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You know they say insanity is inherited ..... you get it from your children.

Indeed tbats why I assumed papa Cameron was stark raving mad by now

 

[cv5]

And see the verb you're defining in Rom10:14, then go to the noun form of the same word in Rom10:16-17 as @Kroogz posted, then go to the verb form again in Rom10:18.

Put it all together and it's very clearly just telling us God spoke Good News > men proclaim that Good News which God spoke > people hear that Good News > some believe/obey that Good News and some don't.

Then look at Rom10:18 and see that Paul clarifies it's just about hearing the voice/the sound which IMO puts @Cameron143 distinction about "audible" hearing to rest.

This is all about audible hearing beginning with men who audibly heard God speak His Good News and who were sent to audibly proclaim His Good News to others could audibly hear His Good news and obey His Good News and thus obey Him / believe His Good News and thus believe Him. And this belief/obedience is called Faith. And Faith FROM something heard/the Gospel and something heard/the Gospel THROUGH [a] spoken word/statement of/from God.

This is part of the problem with this Reformed interpretation. It's coming back into Rom10 and redefining very basic words.

Yes sir.

Put it all together and it's very clearly just telling us God spoke Good News > men proclaim that Good News which God spoke > people hear that Good News > some believe/obey that Good News and some don't.

And yes sir.

Romans 10:18
18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
a“Their voice has gone out bto all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

 

[cv5]

Stephen was preaching and we see they were cut to the heart (pricked).
Stephen was anointed and full of the Holy Spirit of God.
Stephen's words were anointed by the Holy Spirit of God.
But the key to that entire passage of Scripture is [(they chose to shut their ears)].

Yes sir. Or madame.

[Act 7:57 KJV]
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

 

[studier]

includes "spiritual understanding" to the definition

That scrum would be coming right out of the super-determinist playbook sir.
So then is there cast an implicit aspersion/insinuation that nobody (ELSE) can possible be saved, and that preaching is not the necessary initial cause to elicit the desired effect?

Agree.

I like clarity.

It's clear by admission that @Cameron143 is defining a very basic word differently. And we know why.

There is absolutely no way to have any agreement whatsoever in this section of Scripture with anyone who is redefining words.

I was reading the merry-go-round discussion about Faith & Hearing. I was noting how @Cameron143 IMO was completely lacking in clarity.

It's really not about prepositions (like BY, FROM, THROUGH) with Cameron, but about the definition of "hearing". And the word "hearing" is really not even mainly speaking of hearing or listening in Rom10:17, but about "what is heard" - the Gospel. Faith from the Gospel & the Gospel from God's spoken statement.

The Gospel is God's power for salvation.

 

[Magenta]

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)

 

[Magenta]

And the word "hearing" is really not even mainly speaking of hearing or listening in Rom10:17, but about "what is heard" - the Gospel.

Yes, the gospel is heard as FOOLISHNESS.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is biblical.
Thank you, a steady voice, no need to make it all complicated which scripture does not.

Seems like questions like "where does faith come from?" are attempts to destroy the power of the Gospel message.

I think it’s like asking “ did god really say you must not eat of any tree ? “ after god has clearly said don’t eat from this tree you’ll certainly die “ I think it’s a reason to not believe the plain thing. But not that anything’s intentional but rather born of misunderstanding

 

[studier]

Have you ever had a lengthy conversation with a Mormon or a JW.
If you have, then you notice how their minds are held captive.
It is deeper than the definition of words.
Just curious if you see it?

Yes, I have.
Will you elaborate, because JW's do deal with words differently (more grammatically than defining) and in doing so remove the deity of Jesus, for example.

 

[Magenta]

Have you ever had a lengthy conversation with a Mormon or a JW.
If you have, then you notice how their minds are held captive.
It is deeper than the definition of words.
Just curious if you see it?

It's like your posts where you repeatedly contradict and deny what
Jesus said. As well as other Scripture verses. You and your cronies.

Over and over again.

 

[Magenta]

JW's do deal with words differently (more grammatically than defining) and in doing so remove the deity of Jesus, for example.

In that case they have ADDED a word. They do not deal with what is there. They rewrite Scripture like you do.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So duplicitous, it's unbelievable.

Whosoever believes Cameron, not whosoever does not believe.

Preach the gospel to all …Whosever believes shall be saved …..v whoever is already saved will be able to hear the gospel and shall believe

 

[studier]

@Kroogz @cv5

If interested look up the word translated as "obeyed" in Rom10:16 and note what it's based in.

Also, to be completely fair, if we search through all uses of akoē and akouō there is a discussion to be had about the range of potential meaning of these words. And this is the level of discussion that I was saying is really required to try to resolve these things. But that depth of discussion has been taking place in the scholarly arena for an awfully long time.

 

[cv5]

@Kroogz @cv5

If interested look up the word translated as "obeyed" in Rom10:16 and note what it's based in.

Also, to be completely fair, if we search through all uses of akoē and akouō there is a discussion to be had about the range of potential meaning of these words. And this is the level of discussion that I was saying is really required to try to resolve these things. But that depth of discussion has been taking place in the scholarly arena for an awfully long time.

Indeed.

ὑπήκουσαν (hypēkousan) — 1 Occurrence
Romans 10:16 V-AIA-3P
GRK: οὐ πάντες ὑπήκουσαν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ
NAS: they did not all heed the good news;
KJV: not all obeyed the gospel. For
INT: not all obeyed the gospel

hupakouó: To obey, to listen attentively, to heed
Original Word: ὑπακούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupakouó
Pronunciation: hoop-ak-oo'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ak-oo'-o)
KJV: hearken, be obedient to, obey
NASB: obey, obeyed, obedient, answer, became obedient, becoming obedient, heed
Word Origin: [from G5259 (ὑπό - under) and G191 (ἀκούω - heard)]

1. to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively
2. (by implication) to heed or conform to a command or authority

 

[Cameron143]

Hearing (189) (akoe from verb akoúo = to hear) is literally the ability to hear and then can refer to the act of hearing (i.e., listening) and finally to what is heard (as in the previous verse = Ro 10:16).

IMO, much of the language used was a "reflection of the times." Most of the common folks couldn't read and the NT was not completed yet. So most folks relied on a messenger that they "heard" from.

AND.....

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Equal Privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

The word used here has more possible meanings. It can also mean understanding as well as including a responsive action as a result of that understanding. Why didn't you include these definitions?

 

[Magenta]

The word used here has more possible meanings. It can also mean understanding as well as including a responsive action as a result of that understanding. Why didn't you include these definitions?

Shirley you jest .