Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

John 3 v 20-21 ~ Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.

 

[Magenta]

Idk I'm not really following that conclusion. Maybe it has been a long day dealing with an eye infection. If God draws all but not all respond then to me the error falls on man. If God wants all to be saved and died for everyone but not everyone is saved, then I naturally see the error fall on man.

I suppose the hang-up may be the definition of total depravity. Which to me it is total until God moved first. We already see how God moved first in the hearts of mankind. Now if God had not moved then it would be total depravity.

But then again to be total or complete would seem to conflict with the OT saints who by their deeds were seen as righteous. We think of Noah being found righteous as to be found is as if to indicate that God was searching. Not having the indwelling of God's Spirit still had people choosing righteous acts.

Romans 2:13-15
English Standard Version
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

That is actually interesting to think about. That scripture you reference (Romans 6:16) is talking to believers because the same word slave is also used by Paul in Romans 1:1 which says He is a bondservant for Christ.

A Believer

1. A bondservant was a choice
2. Paul says, “For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice” (Romans 7:19) For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; (Romans 7:22) Paul wants to do good but finds himself at war with the flesh. He delights in the good.
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)

Paul gives us a great example of how he delights in the mind of God's laws in which we know of his history as a Pharisee he tried to keep all 600+ laws but also knowing he only failed in the flesh. A complete slave/depraved would not delight in the law or attempt to follow.

But it highlights not only the battle of the flesh but also the power of God once in Christ we gain the divine assistance to actually overcome sin.

An Unbeliever

Of course, we also know that everyone who practices sin is a slave.

John 8:34 ESV
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

A slave to sin doesn't negate the choice to accept Christ. Not having the ability to defeat sin, doesn't negate the Holy Spirit's conviction to repentance and acceptance of Christ. It simply means they are a slave to habitual sin without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Not a slave in the mind of choice to lack the ability to choose Christ after being drawn.

Otherwise, the scriptures that demand an unbeliever to choose are false and misleading.

Mark 5:36 ESV But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not fear, only believe.”

Paul explains how the Gentiles were a law to themselves which wasn't always opposed to good. But I agree that having confidence in the flesh is futile which is the point of needing a Savior. Sure mankind can sometimes adhere to the holy laws of morality or even adhere just as Paul to the written laws of God. But they could never be perfect.

Because of the Holy Spirit drawing people and as mentioned the law written on the Gentiles hearts. It still as said doesn't gain them salvation but it does show how God works for the good even in Gentiles or unbelievers.

As stated, God's drawing and morality are still present or else no one would do good or even come to accept Him.

I agree but that is not my free will argument. The flesh will only bring death no matter what moral good an unbeliever does. No matter how much money they throw towards natural disaster victims. No matter how many fundraisers for sick kids. The debt of sin is eternal as sin separates us from perfection. To live with an all-holy perfect God demands an all-holy perfect sacrifice of atonement.

Your last paragraph actually contradicts your opening. The heart man is born with is not one that can believe. It needs to be replaced first. That is why I iterate what Scripture says about the flesh bringing forth fruit unto death. It is a bad tree and cannot produce the good fruit of faith. And I agree that man is responsible. He knows God exists but creation does not proclaim the gospel, either. But the gospel preached is foolishness to those who are perishing. That too is why something needs to change first. I hope you eye infection clears up!

 

[studier]

But they could never be perfect.

Important point. It's important to understand what God is looking for vs. from His perfect perspective what He sees.

I agree but that is not my free will argument.

Nor is it the free will argument of anyone I've read in these threads. It is however what is alleged against others in these threads. It's actually more akin to the legalist.

 

[Hakawaka]

You are still front loading belief into the equation. What part of, belief does not come first, do you not understand?

You keep taking jabs at me without tagging me into your posts. "Some here think its only atheists hahahehehihii"
I didn't mean only atheists are wicked. It was clear. I said that is the context of the Psalm Paul quotes and the same Psalmist also talks of righteous people. I have explained the verses and I am still waiting for you to explain the ones I posted. I will be waiting for a long time since you just blew it off refusing to comment, because there is no way to harmonize those verses with what you believe.

Let me repost it here, still waiting for that reply, anyone else feel free to chime in as well:


God tells people to "circumcise your hearts" in the OT but God also promises to do it Himself later on. So once again we see the synergy in play.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Clearly we have some responsibility in that as well, if it was all God we wouldnt be in the mess we are in. There wouldnt be a state of emergency in the churches if it was God in charge of our repentance.

I know all the verses, they have been posted many times, but did you know there are also OTHER verses in the Bible. Let me ask the questions this time, how would you see these types of verses:

Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. [Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous and obeyed blameless.]

Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. [Cornelius was a righteous gentile and God heard his prayers. The reason Peter was sent to Cornelius was precisely this]

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. [Same deal, those who work righteousness are accepted by the Lord.]

Ezekiel 14:14
even if these three men—Noah, Daniel and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Ezekiel 22:30
“I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found no one. [Completely refutes calvinism and monergism as a system. God could of just given the gift of faith and repentance to someone and there would have been a man to stand on the gap.]

So as you can see, its not as one sided as you make it sound by carefully selecting the verses that seem to support your position. The Bible clearly teaches both predestination and free will. Both depravity and righteousness.

We gotta be dilligent to harmonize these Scriptures in the best possible way.

 

[fredoheaven]

John 12:48 KJV — He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

A person can either reject or receive Christ. This take a choice. Again from the lups of Christ can eiirher refused or accept, hence, He has will.

 

[studier]

Just a little recap from memory as I recall & understood without going back to reread. If you care to, please correct me if I'm wrong. If I miss anyone, apology, please remind me and add yourself.

Belief & Faith are different:

@sawdust​

@Roughsoul1991​

Belief/Faith

@HeIsHere​

@reneweddaybyday (belief/faith based upon object/content)​

Belief/Faith/Trust/Will

@GWH​

Unspecified ???

@cv5​

@Hakawaka​

FWIW, apart from more detail and some explanations from Scriptures, currently as I understand each I align mostly with the rambler @reneweddaybyday and would assume @HeIsHere does as well but didn't elaborate the object/content as I recall. With some more discussion, I probably would also find [more] agreement with @sawdust and with @Roughsoul1991 who may even have identified the importance of the object/content and thus and thereby attached "Faith" as the more operative word. I also agree with @GWH adding "Trust" because it's in the lexical range of the noun pistis and the verb pisteuō, and though I agree that "Will" is associated I'd have to better understand why @GWH lists it as "=". I also find interest and likely some to much agreement with @Roughsoul1991 re: the base and inclusion of "persuasion" in the discussion as well as the word "faithfulness" which at the end of all the analysis has to be included in the discussion if not becoming one of the main points of the discussion for more than just lexical reasons.

One of the reasons I asked this is because I'm seeing what looks like fairly substantial agreement among this group in overall theology on topic of the thread, while some disagreement re: the meaning of faith & belief. Interestingly for me after years in a certain theological tradition I watched a split develop in part over the Gospel of all things. It caused me to look into some of the reasons and arguments, which led me to have to analyze more of the tradition. Sitting on an island away from everyone and isolating with just the Word and the Spirit and prayerful study, it struck me that at the core of it all was a lack of understanding of two core words and doctrines and within each the actual definitions and specifications of the two words, "faith" and "salvation".

So, thanks for answering. Anytime anyone wants to delve more into this belief and or namely faith and or namely... I may be game to participate. IMO it's not a minor issue, but a core one we should agree upon.

Again, please correct me if I've misstated anyone's position. I'm being lazy and not trying to find posts again.

 

[Magenta]

Nor is it the free will argument of anyone I've read in these threads. It is however what is alleged against others in these threads. It's actually more akin to the legalist.

FWers believe that unregenerated people choose to believe. That is the whole point of the free will debate. Why, you even have people saying God is not required to move people to belief. Do you not even understand your side of what is going on here? It appears not.

 

[Magenta]

John 12:48 KJV — He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

A person can either reject or receive Christ. This take a choice. Again from the lups of Christ can eiirher refused or accept, hence, He has will.

Nobody has said man does not have a will or does not make choices.

You want to talk about what Jesus said?

A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Let's talk about that. Man's heart is incurably wicked. Scripture says so.

It is with the heart that one believes. Scripture says so.

Can a wicked heart bring forth good fruit?

Is faith a good fruit?

 

[studier]

Let me repost it here, still waiting for that reply, anyone else feel free to chime in as well:

I'm chiming in beyond my emoji. Well done. Synergy indeed. Men of faith from Abel [at minimum] indeed based upon knowing and believing and obeying God albeit imperfectly as well as and as much as they knew Him.

Under Law God provided a system for dealing with and teaching about the imperfections and the need for the Savior. When God looks down, He sees the imperfect righteousness of men of faith and at times as in Rom3 that's what we're reading - the view from perfection ultimately desiring perfection. In Christ God shut down the old legal system of dealing with the imperfection and in Him in Spirit in Faith under Grace is bringing sons to predestined perfection conforming them to His Perfect Son so He can have many siblings. This is His decided purpose & plan which He foreknows foreknowing men would believe in Him and in His Perfect Son and thereby become His Children / brothers of His Perfect Son / His Chosen One/Anointed/Christ/King/Savior.....

Refreshing post @Hakawaka

Thanks!

 

[Magenta]

Also, what does legalism have to do with any of this?

The unregenrated person is UNABLE to obey.

That is a Scriptural fact.

It has nothing to do with legalism, and everything to do with ability.

Of course the free willers claim that there is nothing in Scripture attesting to man's inability but that is just another lie they tell.

 

[Magenta]

As stated, God's drawing and morality are still present or else no one would do good or even come to accept Him.

Only those GIVEN to Jesus come.

If a person is incapable of receiving or accepting the spiritual things of God they are not going to "choose" to believe them.

Scripture says they are opposed to them. They are blinded to the truth.

It seems people overlook so much of what Scripture actually says.

 

[Rufus]

Is perseverance a part of the process to salvation? Thanks

Absolutely it is! Saints persevere by God's grace in order to fulfill God's purpose for our lives, i.e. to be transformed to the image of Christ (Rom 8:28-29).

 

[Magenta]

Again from the lups of Christ

From the lips of Christ:

With man it is impossible.

When asked, who can be saved?

 

[Rufus]

I'm chiming in beyond my emoji. Well done. Synergy indeed. Men of faith from Abel [at minimum] indeed based upon knowing and believing and obeying God albeit imperfectly as well as and as much as they knew Him.

Under Law God provided a system for dealing with and teaching about the imperfections and the need for the Savior. When God looks down, He sees the imperfect righteousness of men of faith and at times as in Rom3 that's what we're reading - the view from perfection ultimately desiring perfection. In Christ God shut down the old legal system of dealing with the imperfection and in Him in Spirit in Faith under Grace is bringing sons to predestined perfection conforming them to His Perfect Son so He can have many siblings. This is His decided purpose & plan which He foreknows foreknowing men would believe in Him and in His Perfect Son and thereby become His Children / brothers of His Perfect Son / His Chosen One/Anointed/Christ/King/Savior.....

Refreshing post @Hakawaka

Thanks!

How can "synergy" be logically possible since it's man's "freewill" that is the final, ultimate and efficacious determinant of his eternal destiny? In FWT, God does NOT move the elect's hearts to believe on His Son; He is simply a potential Savior who provides opportunities for men to become saved. In a true synergistic paradigm, God and man would partner up and both would become responsible for man's choices for both wills would equally be effective and play vital roles in salvation.

I will soon make the point above abundantly clear from one of Jesus' miracles in which He healed a man who was "twice dead" (to borrow this phrase from Jude 12); for Jesus cured both his physical and spiritual maladies.

 

[studier]

How can "synergy" be logically possible since it's man's "freewill" that is the final, ultimate and efficacious determinant of his eternal destiny?

Firstly, because God is the final determiner of faith as you well know.

In FWT, God does NOT move the elect's hearts to believe on His Son

In your representation of "FWT" (using your terminology for convenience) He doesn't. In actual "FWT" (whatever that is) God by His Word and Spirit does move hearts to believe.

He is simply a potential Savior who provides opportunities for men to become saved

He's an actual Savior He offers to men to believe in.

In a true synergistic paradigm, God and man would partner up and both would become responsible for man's choices for both wills would equally be effective and play vital roles in salvation.

Again, only in your explanation of what's a "true synergistic paradigm" would this be the case.

I will soon make the point above abundantly clear from one of Jesus' miracles in which He healed a man who was "twice dead" (to borrow this phrase from Jude 12); for Jesus cured both his physical and spiritual maladies.

The problem with your making things clear is that you build in the above self-serving, erroneous definitions and explanations of words and then suggest that you'll prove your error with Scripture.

I doubt you'll find agreement with "FWT" that men are equal to God in anything. An offer in terms willingly set by the One in absolute control that is willingly, actively received by those not in absolute control doesn't make the parties equal. Nor does the word "synergy" require equality. The word says nothing about equality.

 

[Magenta]

How can "synergy" be logically possible since it's man's "freewill" that is the final, ultimate and efficacious determinant of his eternal destiny? In FWT, God does NOT move the elect's hearts to believe on His Son; He is simply a potential Savior who provides opportunities for men to become saved. In a true synergistic paradigm, God and man would partner up and both would become responsible for man's choices for both wills would equally be effective and play vital roles in salvation.

I will soon make the point above abundantly clear from one of Jesus' miracles in which He healed a man who was "twice dead" (to borrow this phrase from Jude 12); for Jesus cured both his physical and spiritual maladies.

You know, it becomes more and more obvious that these FWers do not even understand what they are saying. They deny that man's will is enslaved to his sinful nature until Jesus sets them free, they pretend not to know who the natural man is, or they simply do not know but argue about him anyways, they claim an unregenerated person can and will decide to believe the foolishness he hears in the gospel, that a person of the flesh, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God, can bring forth the good fruit of faith, and then turn around and say that is not what they are saying at all. Saved, and unsaved. Regenerated, and not. Spiritual, and of the flesh. How clueless are they really?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Is perseverance a part of the process to salvation? Thanks

“And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭

 

[Magenta]

n your representation of "FWT" (using your terminology for convenience) He doesn't. In actual "FWT" (whatever that is) God by His Word and Spirit does move hearts to believe.

Maybe for some. Others say God is not required.

What Scripture actually teaches is that the unregenerated person is incapable.

But knee jerk reactions prevail among those with CDS, which is the majority of FWers.

FWT = free will theology. It teaches that slaves to sin overcome their incurably wicked heart... before Jesus sets them free.

Then they will say, slaves to sin is not every sinner. Those sinners who are not atheists don't count.

Whereas Jesus said that whoever sins is a slave to sin.

 

[Magenta]

I learned that many here would rather erroneously assume to know what I believe, and then falsely accuse me of holding to things I do not believe at all, than find out what it is I actually do believe through discussions in good faith. And I found that more than a few revel in misrepresenting what I believe, and applaud others who do likewise, and then along come those too who say this does not happen at all, and others who refuse to acknowledge the truth of this matter in preference to making jokes about it. There are those filled with all kinds of wickedness and depravity, full of envy, murder, strife, and deceit, who despite being guilty of those and other faults such as being heartless and malicious liars, put themselves forward as teachers while claiming God is unfair and uttering other blasphemies. They are merciless slanderers, arrogant, and boastful. The truly weird thing about all this is they do all this at least in part because they hold so tenaciously to their false doctrine of free will, which is nowhere taught in the Bible, preferring to cling to man made traditions than accept what Scripture plainly teaches, which is that the natural man is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, hostile in his mind toward God, in need of the saving grace of God. You might think that these and a plethora of other verses that have multiple times been served up would help them loosen their grasp on their false doctrine, but alas, no, instead they claim such verses are taken out of context and do not apply to their idea of the natural man, who in their view, is good despite Jesus plainly stating otherwise. They also deceive themselves into thinking that not having a will that is free means people are robots, and/or not responsible for the choices they do make, when the reality is quite different from their vain imaginations, in that people make choices all the time, and this from their nature, which for the natural man, who is taken captive to the will of the devil while blinded by the god of this world, does not include coming to believe the gospel which is foolishness to him, for man in his natural state can neither receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed. Again these Scriptural truths simply get swept aside or completely twisted and/or ignored and simply rejected in favour of their free will doctrine, as they ascribe to the natural man what can only be said to be true of the spiritual man. Perhaps I shall never understand why any who say they are Christian would complain so bitterly against the sovereignty of God Who acts unilaterally out of His great everlasting love for us to sever our sin nature, circumcising our hearts so we may choose rightly and love Him in return.

 

[BillyBob]

I learned that many here would rather erroneously assume to know what I believe, and then falsely accuse me of holding to things I do not believe at all, than find out what it is I actually do believe through discussions in good faith. And I found that more than a few revel in misrepresenting what I believe, and applaud others who do likewise, and then along come those too who say this does not happen at all, and others who refuse to acknowledge the truth of this matter in preference to making jokes about it. There are those filled with all kinds of wickedness and depravity, full of envy, murder, strife, and deceit, who despite being guilty of those and other faults such as being heartless and malicious liars, put themselves forward as teachers while claiming God is unfair and uttering other blasphemies. They are merciless slanderers, arrogant, and boastful. The truly weird thing about all this is they do all this at least in part because they hold so tenaciously to their false doctrine of free will, which is nowhere taught in the Bible, preferring to cling to man made traditions than accept what Scripture plainly teaches, which is that the natural man is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, hostile in his mind toward God, in need of the saving grace of God. You might think that these and a plethora of other verses that have multiple times been served up would help them loosen their grasp on their false doctrine, but alas, no, instead they claim such verses are taken out of context and do not apply to their idea of the natural man, who in their view, is good despite Jesus plainly stating otherwise. They also deceive themselves into thinking that not having a will that is free means people are robots, and/or not responsible for the choices they do make, when the reality is quite different from their vain imaginations, in that people make choices all the time, and this from their nature, which for the natural man, who is taken captive to the will of the devil while blinded by the god of this world, does not include coming to believe the gospel which is foolishness to him, for man in his natural state can neither receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed. Again these Scriptural truths simply get swept aside or completely twisted and/or ignored and simply rejected in favour of their free will doctrine, as they ascribe to the natural man what can only be said to be true of the spiritual man. Perhaps I shall never understand why any who say they are Christian would complain so bitterly against the sovereignty of God Who acts unilaterally out of His great everlasting love for us to sever our sin nature, circumcising our hearts so we may choose rightly and love Him in return.

I agree! If salvation is a gift by grace thru faith, then it must be received as a gift rather than earned.