Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Right. All I see is philosophy and jawboning and no Scriptural backing.
Standard hyper-cal gameplay.
Sproul waxed eloquent and in volume about......absolutely nothing that had to do with the actual Bible.
Because of course he failed to rightly understand the OT.
Thank God Paul did.
Amen.
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
How's your search going? Use the CC search tool. It's like a smorgasbord around here.
When you use the Habershon Rule: If it’s a fundamental structural truth, the blueprint must be in the Old Testament.
The Reformed "Augustinian" view of Total Depravity—the idea that a "dead" man cannot even respond to the light of the Word—actually collapses when you look at the OT types of fallen man. In the Old Testament, the fallen man is portrayed as sick, leprous, or wandering, but never "non-responsive" to the voice of the Creator.
Here is how the OT types actually "debunk" the Reformed philosophical view of "Total Inability":
1. The Leprosy Type (Leviticus 13-14)
In the Bible, leprosy is the ultimate type of sin. If the Reformed view were correct, the leper would be a "corpse" (unable to act).
This is the type Jesus Himself used to explain salvation (John 3).
Even in the immediate aftermath of the Fall, the pattern is set.
In the Book of Ruth (a masterclass in typology), Naomi and Ruth are in a state of "total loss."
The Reformed "Augustinian" view of Total Depravity—the idea that a "dead" man cannot even respond to the light of the Word—actually collapses when you look at the OT types of fallen man. In the Old Testament, the fallen man is portrayed as sick, leprous, or wandering, but never "non-responsive" to the voice of the Creator.
Here is how the OT types actually "debunk" the Reformed philosophical view of "Total Inability":
1. The Leprosy Type (Leviticus 13-14)
In the Bible, leprosy is the ultimate type of sin. If the Reformed view were correct, the leper would be a "corpse" (unable to act).
- The Reality: The leper is very much alive. He is "unclean," but he is required to cry out, to tear his clothes, and to present himself to the priest.
- The Proof: The Law of the Leper proves that fallen man is "defiled" and "excluded," but he still possesses the faculty to recognize his condition and seek the Priest (the Last Adam).
This is the type Jesus Himself used to explain salvation (John 3).
- The Reformed Bloviation: They argue a man must be "born again" (regenerated) before he can believe.
- The OT Proof: The Israelites were bitten and "dying" (poisoned), but they were not "dead." God didn't "resurrect" them so they could look; He told them to look so they could live.
- Habershon’s Logic: The power is in the Object (the bronze serpent), not the "ability" of the looker. The fallen man is poisoned, but he can still turn his eyes. If he were "blind and dead," the command to "Look and live" would be a divine mockery.
Even in the immediate aftermath of the Fall, the pattern is set.
- The Type: Adam is "fallen" and "naked," hiding in the trees.
- The Interaction: When God calls, "Where art thou?", Adam hears and responds. * The Refutation: If Adam were "spiritually deaf and dead" in the Reformed sense, God would have been talking to a stone. Instead, the Fall resulted in fear and hiding, not "total biological/spiritual inability" to hear the Word.
In the Book of Ruth (a masterclass in typology), Naomi and Ruth are in a state of "total loss."
- The Type: They have no inheritance, no husband, and no future. They are "dead" in terms of their legal standing in Israel.
- The Proof: Ruth has the "will" to glean in the fields. She has the "will" to seek Boaz. Boaz (the type of Christ) doesn't "regenerate" Ruth so she can want him; he responds to her request for redemption.
That's easy, God doesn't send anyone to hell by His own decision, " The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 Rejection of Jesus as your personal Savior does. There are only 2 eternal destinations, if we reject the one we go to the other. Now with that being said, God does have the power to cast someone to hell " But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: fear Him ( God ) , which after He has killed has POWER to cast into hell: yes , I say fear Him." Luke 12:5, but He leaves our final destination for us to decide. Again I post, " I (God ) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live. That thou may love the Lord thy God, and that thou may obey His voice, and that thou may cleave unto Him: for HE IS THY LIFE, and the length of thy days:...." Deuteronomy 30-19-20, " Jesus said unto him, I AM the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE: no man comes to the Father, BUT BY ME." John 14:6. If someone ran into hard times and had trouble paying his light bill but someone else offered to pay the bill for him several times but the one on hard times never got around to receiving what was offered and his lights were cut off. Would the one who made the offer be responsible? Did he send him into the darkness? The one on hard times CHOSE not to take advantage of the offer of light, and now lives in darkness. Maybe a bad analogy but the same principle when it comes to receiving Jesus or rejecting Him.
So let me get this right, I live a predetermined existence? Do you mean that I cannot choose to place my trust in Christ, He drags me into His Kingdom kicking and screaming, kind of like Paul kicking against the pricks? Or that I cannot choose to rebel against Christ, like the Prodigal walking away from his Fathers house? Or do you mean, if I should wander from my home in Christ, that I cannot cannot come to my senses and return, again, like the Prodigal, or Manasseh, or David did? Or do you mean that if I chose to wear a red shirt today as opposed to a blue one, that this was somehow predetermined? And if my choices are so controlled, by God I presume, then how would you explain His innumerable warnings and admonitions concerning which ones I should make? Not to mention the long list of consequences we are warned could potentially befall us when we choose to make the wrong choices.
If I have no free will, how can God justly chastise me as a child, or punish me as He does those who do not belong to Him? Or justly reward me for diligently seeking His face? Since, unless I have completely missed your point, I really had no choice in the matter whether I searched for Him or not.
Strange concept this no free will thing.
Am I to assume that God Himself put you up to starting this thread? That may be the most ridiculous notion I've considered this week. I don't know about free will, but its obvious that certain people clearly have too much time on their hands. You do you man, oh wait...
Well spoken.
And yes, this super-deterministic pseudo philosophy has no basis in terms of Biblical precedent.
Oh, and before I forget......it also aligns with and supports Satan's lies whereby he deceived the fallen angels.
The very same lies that he uses to deceive fallen men today.
Can we really not exercise free will?
“O Jerusalem… How often I have longed to gather your children together… but you were not willing.” (Matt. 23:37)
“God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever will believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
“I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses; now choose life… Love the Lord your God.” (Deut. 30:19b-20a)
MFW is implied by passages that imply IF: the condition of FAITH in Jesus, as in these early chapters of Romans.
1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile. [IF whosoever believes]
2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end. [IF whosoever believes from conversion until death]
3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading. [IF whosoever repents of unbelief/ignoring GW]
4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). [“or not” signifies IF ]
5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows. [IF whosoever believes, then heaven, IF not–then hell]
6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4). [IF whosoever perseveres in saving belief]
7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW. [resistible = or not = IF]
8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil. [resisting/choosing atheism is made possible by IF]
Rom. 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.
9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off. [IF in the OT is found in Deut. 30:19]
10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e. [IF = faith; in JC–or not/in self/Satan]
11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7). [may–or may not = IF]
12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit. [thus IF must choose belief in JC]
13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11). [opportunity = IF ]
16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10). [IF indicates God’s just judgment]
17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ. [Abe was the first to satisfy the condition of IF by believing in God]
18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
“O Jerusalem… How often I have longed to gather your children together… but you were not willing.” (Matt. 23:37)
“God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever will believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
“I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses; now choose life… Love the Lord your God.” (Deut. 30:19b-20a)
MFW is implied by passages that imply IF: the condition of FAITH in Jesus, as in these early chapters of Romans.
1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile. [IF whosoever believes]
2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end. [IF whosoever believes from conversion until death]
3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading. [IF whosoever repents of unbelief/ignoring GW]
4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). [“or not” signifies IF ]
5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows. [IF whosoever believes, then heaven, IF not–then hell]
6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4). [IF whosoever perseveres in saving belief]
7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW. [resistible = or not = IF]
8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil. [resisting/choosing atheism is made possible by IF]
Rom. 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.
9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off. [IF in the OT is found in Deut. 30:19]
10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e. [IF = faith; in JC–or not/in self/Satan]
11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7). [may–or may not = IF]
12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit. [thus IF must choose belief in JC]
13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11). [opportunity = IF ]
16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10). [IF indicates God’s just judgment]
17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ. [Abe was the first to satisfy the condition of IF by believing in God]
18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
"MFW is implied by passages that imply IF: the condition of FAITH in Jesus, as in these early chapters of Romans."
Conditional conjunctions are noted in key passages, all of which prove actual free will conclusively,
In English grammar, "IF" introduces a condition that must be met for something else to be true.
Basic structure
If (condition), then (result).
Examples:
If it rains, then the game will be canceled.
If you believe, you will be saved.
If this is true, then that follows.
Even when “then” is not written, it is always implied.
So called "mundane" choices are permitted we are told BUT
a person cannot, will not and is totally incapable of responding positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus unless uniquely, particularly and divinely regenerated before belief and the exercising of faith.
We have been told this all throughout this thread.
We have also been informed that a person can believe all manner of concepts but not the Good News, this god, has made it so fallen man is unable to believe ...... therefore this god creates and selects those He wants for himself, all the rest of humanity is inconsequential and they fit themselves for destruction... he actually hates them as well.
When viewed in all its implications (Rebekah a type of the Bride the Church), these passages alone utterly destroys every hyper-cal pretension there ever was......
Gen 24:8
And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.
Gen 24:58
And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.
***********************************************************************
Jhn 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if G1437 any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jhn 10:9
I am the door: by me if G1437 any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1437/kjv/tr/43-1/#lexResults