Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Cameron143 said:
If Jesus paid for the sins of every person past, present, and future, and the Father has accepted this payment for all people, on what basis does God send individuals to hell? If He does so, is this righteous?
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On the basis of rejecting Christ.

If Jesus hasn't paid the price for everyone's sin, on what basis does God raise everyone from the dead? (the wages if sin is death)
 
Cameron143 said:
One last try: is unbelief a sin?
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When people reject the work of Christ, they are rejecting the truth of efficacy of His salvation. When they are raised again to judgment, that resurrection will ultimately be the proof the refused to put faith for, and that is the 'work', whether good (faith) or bad (faith), is what Christ will judge. Many think the judgment will be about their prophesying, driving out demons, and doing miracles in His name, but I wonder if the "works" referenced in the GWT passages is plural to match the plural objects of the judgement, i.e. his work singular their works plural. "...because they do not believe in Me (Jn 16:9).

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.

Jesus concludes this chapter with the exhortation to keep faith in the coming time after His fulfilment of His word, "I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;" and indeed, the Holy Spirit convicts us in regard to righteousness whenever we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor 13:5).
 
sawdust said:
On the basis of rejecting Christ.

If Jesus hasn't paid the price for everyone's sin, on what basis does God raise everyone from the dead? (the wages if sin is death)
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On the basis of righteousness. While all may be raised, some will be under condemnation while others are not.

On what basis does God send someone to hell who's sins are paid for and the Father has accepted Jesus' payment?

Is rejecting Christ a sin?
 
sawdust said:
No. Sin is breaking the law.

1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.


Unbelief is desire conceived in opposition to God's will which gives rise to sin.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
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Are we not commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Is rejecting Christ a sin?
 
Mem said:
When people reject the work of Christ, they are rejecting the truth of efficacy of His salvation. When they are raised again to judgment, that resurrection will ultimately be the proof the refused to put faith for, and that is the 'work', whether good (faith) or bad (faith), is what Christ will judge. Many think the judgment will be about their prophesying, driving out demons, and doing miracles in His name, but I wonder if the "works" referenced in the GWT passages is plural to match the plural objects of the judgement, i.e. his work singular their works plural. "...because they do not believe in Me (Jn 16:9).

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.

Jesus concludes this chapter with the exhortation to keep faith in the coming time after His fulfilment of His word, "I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;" and indeed, the Holy Spirit convicts us in regard to righteousness whenever we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor 13:5).
Click to expand...
Are we commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Is rejecting Christ a sin?
 
Watchman22 said:
You asked, " is there a difference between fleshly faith and spiritual faith?"

Basically they are the same. the difference is what the "object " of faith is, and how said faith is "applied," and how long they take to become fact.

using the examples i gave you for temporal faith and faithing.
In 1) the objects of faith are the food (the parts of food you can't see and are invisible).
2) the object of faith is the air, invisible and unseen.
3) the object of faith is the car, specifically all the working engine parts. they are unseen, invisible.
4) the intersection, the object of faith are the people in the other cars, and what they are doing at that moment. unseen, invisible.

Not much different in the spiritual relationship with the living God, unseen, invisible. the difference between the flesh and spirit, is i can have the food tested and proven to be safe, faith over, it's a fact now. I can have the air quality tested and proven to be safe, faith over, it's a fact now. I can have my engine looked at and proven to be safe, faith over, it's a fact now. So all theses acts of faith in the temporal are becoming facts at some point. And, some day our faithing relationship with the living and invisible God will become a fact also, and that act of faith will be over, and will be a fact now. It's just going to take longer. ( we just need to make sure we are fulfilling pisteuo correctly with a continually surrendered life and living a life inspired by such surrender. And not by the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in Gods word. the object of Faith and faithing has to be God himself.)

As for Rom. 10:17, this is the problem.

1) the word "Faith" in that passage is the noun pistis, 4102 "a thing" and is translated to mean conviction, reliance upon, ( it's not the verb "pisteuo" where we get the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.)

2) the word "hearing", used twice in that passage,189, also a noun, a thing, and means a thing heard, ( in the strongs, it notes that this kind of hearing needs to be compared to a courtroom hearing. in which a decision is always made.)

3) the other important word in Rom. 10:17 is the word "word". 4487, Rhema and means "an utterance, narration, instruction." ( not the word euaggelion which is the Greek word for gospel)

4) the word "God" 2316 and means supreme deity.

So this is how rom. 10:17 should read, in relation to God and His word.
"So then Faith ( conviction and reliance upon God) comes ( added by the translators) by hearing, (a thing heard) a hearing ( a thing heard ) by the word (utterances, narration, and instruction) of God . (the supreme deity.)

It's when we try to make the word "faith" a verb and insert the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in this passage is error. And insert the word gospel for "word" in this passage which is error also. and try to use the word Lord or Jesus in the Passage instead of God. And yes , before you go ballistic on me, i understand all about the trinity and am in full understanding of it. But the passage uses the word "God" which specifically means "supreme deity".

So in my discernment, Rom. 10:17 is highlighting more of the call ( utterance, narration, instruction, of the Father to Christ when this was written. Not the gospel as we know it today. so even though we (should) have a better understanding of "the gospel" today, we need to be careful not to use it to support a bad understanding like the believe and recieve doctrine. IMU
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1) the word "Faith" in that passage is the noun pistis, 4102 "a thing" and is translated to mean conviction, reliance upon, ( it's not the verb "pisteuo" where we get the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.)

2) the word "hearing", used twice in that passage,189, also a noun, a thing, and means a thing heard, ( in the strongs, it notes that this kind of hearing needs to be compared to a courtroom hearing. in which a decision is always made.)

3) the other important word in Rom. 10:17 is the word "word". 4487, Rhema and means "an utterance, narration, instruction." ( not the word euaggelion which is the Greek word for gospel)

It's when we try to make the word "faith" a verb and insert the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in this passage is error. And insert the word gospel for "word" in this passage which is error also.

So this is how rom. 10:17 should read, in relation to God and His word.
"So then Faith ( conviction and reliance upon God) comes ( added by the translators) by hearing, (a thing heard) a hearing ( a thing heard ) by the word (utterances, narration, and instruction) of God . (the supreme deity.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK do you now, FINALLY understand this passage @Cameron143 ?
PLEASE tell us that you do. You have habitually abused and misapprehended Romans 10:17 since you have been here.
Causing mayhem and confusion. For pity's sake learn something and correct yourself. For your own good. And that of everyone else.
 
cv5 said:
1) the word "Faith" in that passage is the noun pistis, 4102 "a thing" and is translated to mean conviction, reliance upon, ( it's not the verb "pisteuo" where we get the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.)

2) the word "hearing", used twice in that passage,189, also a noun, a thing, and means a thing heard, ( in the strongs, it notes that this kind of hearing needs to be compared to a courtroom hearing. in which a decision is always made.)

3) the other important word in Rom. 10:17 is the word "word". 4487, Rhema and means "an utterance, narration, instruction." ( not the word euaggelion which is the Greek word for gospel)

It's when we try to make the word "faith" a verb and insert the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in this passage is error. And insert the word gospel for "word" in this passage which is error also.

So this is how rom. 10:17 should read, in relation to God and His word.
"So then Faith ( conviction and reliance upon God) comes ( added by the translators) by hearing, (a thing heard) a hearing ( a thing heard ) by the word (utterances, narration, and instruction) of God . (the supreme deity.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK do you now, FINALLY understand this passage @Cameron143 ?
PLEASE tell us that you do. You have habitually abused and misapprehended Romans 10:17 since you have been here.
Causing mayhem and confusion. For pity's sake learn something and correct yourself. For your own good. And that of everyone else.
Click to expand...
RF
 
Watchman22 said:
You asked, " is there a difference between fleshly faith and spiritual faith?"

Basically they are the same. the difference is what the "object " of faith is, and how said faith is "applied," and how long they take to become fact.

using the examples i gave you for temporal faith and faithing.
In 1) the objects of faith are the food (the parts of food you can't see and are invisible).
2) the object of faith is the air, invisible and unseen.
3) the object of faith is the car, specifically all the working engine parts. they are unseen, invisible.
4) the intersection, the object of faith are the people in the other cars, and what they are doing at that moment. unseen, invisible.

Not much different in the spiritual relationship with the living God, unseen, invisible. the difference between the flesh and spirit, is i can have the food tested and proven to be safe, faith over, it's a fact now. I can have the air quality tested and proven to be safe, faith over, it's a fact now. I can have my engine looked at and proven to be safe, faith over, it's a fact now. So all theses acts of faith in the temporal are becoming facts at some point. And, some day our faithing relationship with the living and invisible God will become a fact also, and that act of faith will be over, and will be a fact now. It's just going to take longer. ( we just need to make sure we are fulfilling pisteuo correctly with a continually surrendered life and living a life inspired by such surrender. And not by the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in Gods word. the object of Faith and faithing has to be God himself.)

As for Rom. 10:17, this is the problem.

1) the word "Faith" in that passage is the noun pistis, 4102 "a thing" and is translated to mean conviction, reliance upon, ( it's not the verb "pisteuo" where we get the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.)

2) the word "hearing", used twice in that passage,189, also a noun, a thing, and means a thing heard, ( in the strongs, it notes that this kind of hearing needs to be compared to a courtroom hearing. in which a decision is always made.)

3) the other important word in Rom. 10:17 is the word "word". 4487, Rhema and means "an utterance, narration, instruction." ( not the word euaggelion which is the Greek word for gospel)

4) the word "God" 2316 and means supreme deity.

So this is how rom. 10:17 should read, in relation to God and His word.
"So then Faith ( conviction and reliance upon God) comes ( added by the translators) by hearing, (a thing heard) a hearing ( a thing heard ) by the word (utterances, narration, and instruction) of God . (the supreme deity.)

It's when we try to make the word "faith" a verb and insert the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in this passage is error. And insert the word gospel for "word" in this passage which is error also. and try to use the word Lord or Jesus in the Passage instead of God. And yes , before you go ballistic on me, i understand all about the trinity and am in full understanding of it. But the passage uses the word "God" which specifically means "supreme deity".

So in my discernment, Rom. 10:17 is highlighting more of the call ( utterance, narration, instruction, of the Father to Christ when this was written. Not the gospel as we know it today. so even though we (should) have a better understanding of "the gospel" today, we need to be careful not to use it to support a bad understanding like the believe and recieve doctrine. IMU
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Just think @Cameron143 , you could have, should have endeavored to conscientiously approach this passage with the requisite understanding that only comes by legitimate diligent application of proper hermeneutics and word studies in the original language.

But, you chose not to make the effort. Then used this passage to prop up some kind of bogus dogma of you own imagination, causing many to stumble.

Let the board be your jury in this matter.
 
Genez said:
I guess you did not know?

TULIP Calvinists are convinced that God must drag people to the altar to get them saved.
To them, that is what the drawing of God means.
Like dragging captured fish in a net.


I said what I said... in part, with them in mind.
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Well I am not Tulip or a calvinist so I don't think this applies to me and it was uncalled for
 
cv5 said:
Just think @Cameron143 , you could have, should have endeavored to conscientiously approach this passage with the requisite understanding that only comes by legitimate diligent application of proper hermeneutics and word studies in the original language.

But, you chose not to make the effort. Then used this passage to prop up some kind of bogus dogma of you own imagination, causing many to stumble.

Let the board be your jury in this matter.
Click to expand...
RF
 
cv5 said:
Just think @Cameron143 , you could have, should have endeavored to conscientiously approach this passage with the requisite understanding that only comes by legitimate diligent application of proper hermeneutics and word studies in the original language.

But, you chose not to make the effort. Then used this passage to prop up some kind of bogus dogma of you own imagination, causing many to stumble.

Let the board be your jury in this matter.
Click to expand...

this is how rom. 10:17 should read, in relation to God and His word.
"So then Faith ( conviction and reliance upon God) comes ( added by the translators) by hearing, (a thing heard) a hearing ( a thing heard ) by the word (utterances, narration, and instruction) of God . (the supreme deity.)

It's when we try to make the word "faith" a verb and insert the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in this passage is error. And insert the word gospel for "word" in this passage which is error also. and try to use the word Lord or Jesus in the Passage instead of God. And yes , before you go ballistic on me, i understand all about the trinity and am in full understanding of it. But the passage uses the word "God" which specifically means "supreme deity".

So in my discernment, Rom. 10:17 is highlighting more of the call ( utterance, narration, instruction, of the Father to Christ when this was written. Not the gospel as we know it today. so even though we (should) have a better understanding of "the gospel" today, we need to be careful not to use it to support a bad understanding like the believe and recieve doctrine. IMU

I stand by every word of this post.

I don't see the sense in going deeper into this since your not hearing what I've already said, but I'll do it anyway.

My translation is from the perspective of the moment it was written. The "hearing by the word of God" is not talking about the gospel or good news. Because they didn't use the Greek word for gospel, "word of God" would be a divine message pointing to the call of the Father.

Now with that said, could the ability to faithe come by hearing the word of God today? Yes! As long as we do not use it as our object of faith and faithing instead of God Himself.

So we're again in that paradoxical arena of understanding, that only comes from having the spirit and mind of Christ. But the Greek text backs my understanding up.
 
Watchman22 said:
this is how rom. 10:17 should read, in relation to God and His word.
"So then Faith ( conviction and reliance upon God) comes ( added by the translators) by hearing, (a thing heard) a hearing ( a thing heard ) by the word (utterances, narration, and instruction) of God . (the supreme deity.)

It's when we try to make the word "faith" a verb and insert the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing in this passage is error. And insert the word gospel for "word" in this passage which is error also. and try to use the word Lord or Jesus in the Passage instead of God. And yes , before you go ballistic on me, i understand all about the trinity and am in full understanding of it. But the passage uses the word "God" which specifically means "supreme deity".

So in my discernment, Rom. 10:17 is highlighting more of the call ( utterance, narration, instruction, of the Father to Christ when this was written. Not the gospel as we know it today. so even though we (should) have a better understanding of "the gospel" today, we need to be careful not to use it to support a bad understanding like the believe and recieve doctrine. IMU

I stand by every word of this post.

I don't see the sense in going deeper into this since your not hearing what I've already said, but I'll do it anyway.

My translation is from the perspective of the moment it was written. The "hearing by the word of God" is not talking about the gospel or good news. Because they didn't use the Greek word for gospel, "word of God" would be a divine message pointing to the call of the Father.

Now with that said, could the ability to faithe come by hearing the word of God today? Yes! As long as we do not use it as our object of faith and faithing instead of God Himself.

So we're again in that paradoxical arena of understanding, that only comes from having the spirit and mind of Christ. But the Greek text backs my understanding up.
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong, I commend you on your correct interpretation of this passage.
I learned much and thank you for the effort, we need MORE of the same!

I have nothing to criticize at all I think you have edified the thread greatly.
 
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