Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

Not one chapter and verse cited.

anyhow since your unwilling to apologise to Cameron and since I've asked you for 2 weeks in 3 occasions addressing every disagreement you have had with Cameron .

I'm now not addressing you no more, until you do

 

[sawdust]

Part of the training, "do this too often"

How to Teach and Preach Calvinism
Desiring God, John Piper

One of many such website, tell me this isn't cultic...

I think those here who hold to TULIP ought to actually follow that page as those here seem to add their own brand by being disparaging and belittle others who disagree as well. Don't recall reading the instruction for that on the page.

 

[Genez]

I have a question for all FWers: Is God's will free to do as he pleases?

God is immutable Righteousness. He can not sin. He alone is free to do as He pleases.

When the Holy Spirit controls us? We can not sin if we have matured in learning and understanding sound Bible doctrine, the more we become free to know the right choice.

I counted ten verses cited

You did. But we need to see chapter and verse in print to verify you are not misreading something.

 

[Genez]

anyhow since your unwilling to apologise to Cameron and since I've asked you for 2 weeks in 3 occasions addressing every disagreement you have had with Cameron .

I'm now not addressing you no more, until you do

Thank you!@

 

[Genez]

I counted ten verses cited

Seemed to be worded as your opinions.

We need to see chapter and verse in print to verify you are not misreading something.

 

[sawdust]

How can a God-hating world love God apart from HIS efficacious, supernatural work of Heart Circumcision? Plus we know with certainty that God did not promise this divine work to each and every person in the world w/o exception, since the promise was directed and is limited to God's covenant people. God has not made any redemptive covenant with the world. God, therefore, is obligated to fulfill his promise to only His chosen, covenant people.

Again it's what you are saying. People continue to hate God because He doesn't love them, so how is that their fault? You made man totally incapable of anything, including what God created them for and then blame man for what God fails to do. God's covenants are unilateral except the one made with Israel which, was bilateral for they had to keep the Law for God to fulfill His side of the bargain. The only person God is obligated to is Himself. The only reason you and I are saved is because the Lord God keeps His word. He determined to save believers and that is exactly what He does.

 

[Genez]

I have a question for all FWers: Is God's will free to do as he pleases?

God is Immutable Righteousness which makes Him Absolute Holiness at all times.
For that reason, he can not sin.
God alone is free to do as He pleases at all times.

As for us?

When the Holy Spirit controls us?
After we have matured and grown in learning and understanding much sound doctrine?
Then the more our options will become available to broaden the use of our thinking to make right choices.


grace and peace ...........

 

[sawdust]

Thank you!@

Don't hold your breath. I said the same thing when he promised not to share with me anymore. He didn't keep his word so I had to put him on ignore.

 

[Genez]

Don't hold your breath. I said the same thing when he promised not to share with me anymore. He didn't keep his word so I had to put him on ignore.

He must know how he is disliked.

After all. He works at it.

 

[Rufus]

How does God do that?
Use cutting words?

You say only words you read in the Bible and know not what you speak about.

I did say that circumcision of the heart is supernatural work of God, did I not? And you expect that a fallible, finite human being is able to explain the miraculous? You are totally out of your mind!

 

[Rufus]

I said:



So it looks like I did not say you said sin had desires.

Who needs to learn to read?

Not every heart is evil, but every heart is under the bondage of the sin nature which, is why grace must do it's work on the flesh in order to let the heart be free to choose for itself. It's because you don't understand the sin nature properly (what and where it is and how it works) you attribute evil to every heart at birth without realising you are accusing God of creating men evil. Only God can create the soul, our parents only created our flesh. The heart is a function of the soul. All souls are created by God knowing neither good nor evil, they are neutral. The Lord has never forsaken this world and has worked within it continually to draw all men to salvation. Some have no desire for good whatsoever and end up lost forever. Others desire good but are unable to do it because the sin nature keeps them bound to the impulses of the flesh and it deceives the mind. The people live in darkness, it doesn't necessarily mean they become darkness, for the Lord shines His light into this world and the dark cannot overcome it. They are drawn to that light, not knowing who or why the light shines, only knowing they prefer it to the dark.

And my heart is not dark. It may be darkened in some places still but that is why I continue to study and learn and not rest on my own understanding but rely on the Lord to show me my ignorance and correct my errors.

Jesus said that no mere mortal on this planet is good -- that only God alone is good! So, since human beings are not inherently good, nor inherently righteous, then they can only be evil or unrighteous. Jesus also told the Jews of his day that they were evil! Everyone comes into this world in a spiritual state of death (a/k/a darkness). Paul never said that the sons of men become darkness, but man is inherently darkness itself! And men LOVE the darkness (a/k/a SELF).

And I have never said that God creates man evil. That's your carnal and deliberate straw man conclusion. Did not God create Adam "very good"? CV5's superhero (and quite possibly yours too?) is responsible for mankind's condition. But the true hero of the human race fixed Adam's total, unmitigated disaster.

And scripture doesn't talk about your mythical "impulses" but it does speak very often to man's ungodly DESIRES. And these desires (consisting of mind, emotions and conscience) are what drives and directs man's choices, which is precisely why there are so many passages that talk about human desires! Every human being makes his choices based upon his wants or his needs, i.e. desires.

 

[Rufus]

[/quote] Rufus said:


I have a question for all FWers: Is God's will free to do as he pleases?

God is Immutable Righteousness which makes Him Absolute Holiness at all times.
For that reason, he can not sin.
God alone is free to do as He pleases at all times. [/quote]

But...how can God truly be free if he doesn't have the power to make choices contrary to his righteous and holy nature?

 

[Rufus]

Again it's what you are saying. People continue to hate God because He doesn't love them, so how is that their fault? You made man totally incapable of anything, including what God created them for and then blame man for what God fails to do. God's covenants are unilateral except the one made with Israel which, was bilateral for they had to keep the Law for God to fulfill His side of the bargain. The only person God is obligated to is Himself. The only reason you and I are saved is because the Lord God keeps His word. He determined to save believers and that is exactly what He does.

God hasn't failed to do anything! You assume failure because you also presume that God always intended in eternity to save each and every person on the planet.

Sinners know they are sinners but they suppress that truth, too, in unrighteousness. But also, you constantly fail to understand the biblical concept of FEDERAL HEADSHIP! Man is morally culpable because all of Adam's progeny were in his loins, as it were, when he sinned. All mankind participated in their daddy's sin and inherited his sinful nature, which is precisely why mankind sins.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus said that no mere mortal on this planet is good -- that only God alone is good! So, since human beings are not inherently good, nor inherently righteous, then they can only be evil or unrighteous. Jesus also told the Jews of his day that they were evil! Everyone comes into this world in a spiritual state of death (a/k/a darkness). Paul never said that the sons of men become darkness, but man is inherently darkness itself! And men LOVE the darkness (a/k/a SELF).

And I have never said that God creates man evil. That's your carnal and deliberate straw man conclusion. Did not God create Adam "very good"? CV5's superhero (and quite possibly yours too?) is responsible for mankind's condition. But the true hero of the human race fixed Adam's total, unmitigated disaster.

And scripture doesn't talk about your mythical "impulses" but it does speak very often to man's ungodly DESIRES. And these desires (consisting of mind, emotions and conscience) are what drives and directs man's choices, which is precisely why there are so many passages that talk about human desires! Every human being makes his choices based upon his wants or his needs, i.e. desires.

No-one is inherently good except God. This is why God cannot create people good (He cannot create Himself) but nor can He create them evil.

No, it is not true they must automatically be the opposite. To say such has God creating man inherently evil and worse still, blaming them for their evil. You accuse God of evil with such statements.

Darkness is all we know and ever would know if it were not for the grace of God, but you don't want God's grace going out to all men just a select few. The scripture says we live in darkness (ie. spiritual death), which way we turn, depends on our desires when the light is shone into that darkness.

You don't have to say directly that God creates man evil, it is insinuated in your comment that man is born inherently evil. It is not a straw man, it is only logical Captain Kirk. Good and evil is the domain of the soul and it is God alone who creates the soul. Our flesh has a sin nature making it wrong but it is not evil. You would be a Gnostic if you declare the flesh evil. We become evil in the darkness of our soul if we refuse the light, if we fail to learn from the Father who draws us by means of His light. Jn.6:45

He did not create Adam very good (inherently), He declared what He created good because at that stage it was all within His will. Obedience to God's will is what makes something good. As we walk in accordance with His will, by faith in the power of the Spirit, the goodness that is God flows though and out from us. In this way we can be declared good by God. It is His goodness we are reflecting for that is how we were made to be.

Yes man is driven by his desires and sometimes, when the light is shone and he sees there is something other than the darkness, he desires that light more than the dark. Romans 7 makes it quite clear a man can be torn apart between his desire to do good and his inability to do good. Salvation gives us the power to do the good we desire.

 

[sawdust]

God hasn't failed to do anything! You assume failure because you also presume that God always intended in eternity to save each and every person on the planet.

I do not presume that. God intended that all man should trust Him but He also knew not all would.

Sinners know they are sinners but they suppress that truth, too, in unrighteousness. But also, you constantly fail to understand the biblical concept of FEDERAL HEADSHIP! Man is morally culpable because all of Adam's progeny were in his loins, as it were, when he sinned. All mankind participated in their daddy's sin and inherited his sinful nature, which is precisely why mankind sins.

I know all men are born sinners because of Adam but how can they suppress the truth when you say they are incapable of knowing the truth?

What you fail to recognise is that the sin nature is in the flesh not the soul ergo, the soul, if freed from the control of the flesh can make choices that are not against the Spirit. The soul is not inherently evil nor is it inherently good. It will learn (because of the grace of God) one and the other and decide for itself which it prefers.

 

[Genez]

I did say that circumcision of the heart is supernatural work of God, did I not? And you expect that a fallible, finite human being is able to explain the miraculous? You are totally out of your mind!

What does the supernatural act of God produce?

Heart is not speaking of the human pump.
It is where we do our thinking and making our conclusions about things.

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. Proverbs 23:7a​

And, Satan fell in terms of how he thought in his heart.


For you have said in your heart:

‘I will ascend into heaven,​

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;​

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation​

On the farthest sides of the north;​

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,​

I will be like the Most High.’ Isaiah 14:13-14​

​

Its a man's thinking that the Lord has to cut out the old fleshly ways of thinking.
He does that circumcision by making a believer spiritually alive.
Alive, so that his heart can become transformed by the comprehension of the teachings of God's Word!

 

[StanDupp]

how can God truly be free if he doesn't have the power to make choices contrary to his righteous and holy nature?

It would make Him a liar if He did

God cannot lie, so you should accept that

 

[Genez]

Rufus said:


I have a question for all FWers: Is God's will free to do as he pleases?

God is Immutable Righteousness which makes Him Absolute Holiness at all times.
For that reason, he can not sin.
God alone is free to do as He pleases at all times.

But...how can God truly be free if he doesn't have the power to make choices contrary to his righteous and holy nature?

Would you want to eat cow dung when you can always eat steak?
Would that please you if you could?

God does not have to choose to eat cow dung.
He is free not to do anything that displeases Him.

Jealous?

 

[StanDupp]

Jealous?

Not after that crazy rant, no.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Pride in flesh before the fall, is something that leads everyone to reject God's will.

And in the naturally wicked heart with the vain imagination, the heart is unable an uncooperative to recognise that it should be living according to God's word.

As God declared the will of flesh is the will man and holds it's will above God.

It's unable to judge it's own actions before it's to late. So God once again goes against will of the flesh and write his laws in his children in his new heart of flesh he gives them his new heart not theres, again going against the current state of there will

But God can also judge the naturally wicked heart as scriptures declare every careless word the naturally wicked heart speaks will be heid accountable.

So there for when God says his active word judges the heart and motives, this Also means his active goad in a person is judging there motives and pricking there conscience at the same time.

also his active will is going against the will of the flesh in order that the person becomes responsible for his actions and words.
God put his living fear of wickedness in the naturally wicked heart and they tremble with fear in many ways, one way they tremble is when God is giving them his commands.

Another way they tremble with fear is when they start disobeying God.

Again this is all done to save a person and it is by the active fear of the lord in the unsaved that they come to know him.
The fear of the lord is to know the lord in the unsaved.

The active fear of wickedness the lord has and plants in the unsaved is also enough for them to work out there salvation in fear and trembling,

Again done to save them discipline them as they can not discipline them them self without his active will.

Neither can they hear neither will they listen neither are there eyes opened.

His active will is also shown in the scriptures that declare the wages for sin is death since you're made alive in Christ even tho you still have a sin nature, this rule applies to the unsaved

This means the naturally wicked heart is under the the active will of death until God frees them from his active will.

This also means that until they are free because there under the active will of death there an easy target for satan to have power over them.

Because there the active will of death was applied to all mankind fallen nature.

As scripture declares the will of the flesh is the will of man.

So the nature of flesh is passed in from parent to sibling

Which means the active will of death and God's judgement is active in all mankind untill he frees them.

And until they obey him.

when was the last time you struggled with your flesh?

when was the last time you were chastened by God? ... what was the result of God having chastened you?

.