Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Calvinists assert a person can ONLY deny the Gospel, unless god directly, uniquely, particularly intervenes and regenerates first,

the person has an inward work done before they believe, so in essence they have been sanctified before belief.

Error from start to finish.

Which is exactly what 2Thes 2:13 and 1Pet 1:2-5 teach. Notice the LOGICAL order of the phrases in both passages.

 

[Magenta]

He calls, convicts, and enables, but man must still respond.

All the red herrings and straw men. Nobody has said man does not respond. Why do such ideas even ever get presented?

Enabling is also called being made alive in Christ. Gosh. All you heretics refuse to admit the obvious.

You walk right up to the line but then refuse to commit to the obvious.

You stick to your anti-Biblical stance at all costs. That's what makes you a heretic.

You claim the flesh does what Scripture explicitly says it cannot. You want to believe it is free while
taken captive to do the will of the devil, part of the world and not called out of the world. The world
cannot receive the Spirit of truth. Scripture says so. That man cannot obey. Scripture says so. You ignore it.

 

[Genez]

Hypocrite. And Pelagian heretics such as yourself claim man can decide to believe what Scripture says he cannot in the natural state.

Yes! No one can decide to believe for himself in his natural state.
That is why we need the POWER of God's grace to free up our soul to decide what we want to believe

Many Christians have an sweet emotional response when they hear the word 'grace' mentioned.
But, they fail to realize that grace is a real power.
God's power that God provides to enable the helpless to function as needed.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, ​

for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Corinthians 12:9a​

When grace is drawing all men into salvation?
That grace power will suppress the depravity of the flesh.
Thus, squelching the sin nature's dominance over the soul.

In doing so, that soul which had been enslaved to the flesh, will be freed up and given a chance to think things through.

All men are at some point drawn by God. Those whop freely reject, God condemns and stops the drawing process.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11​

​

That is the Word of God.

 

[Magenta]

It is God who establishes you in Christ. God made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We have not received the spirit of the world. God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. If the Spirit of God lives in you, you are not controlled by the flesh, but by the Spirit. By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

So, when we are told in Rom 9:15 that God will have mercy on whom He chooses, then that makes Him an unjust God?
I personally do not think so, when there are none who deserve His mercy........

Context. It’s talking about the Jews and their false beliefs of salvific nationalism and works alone salvationism without God’s grace or mercy. Read the end of Romans 9 and keep reading.


….

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Did God FORCE the ancient Hebrews to leave Egypt or did God rescue them?

Many complained (sinned) and did not inherit the promised land. Many even died because of their sin. So things are conditional and not unconditional.


….

 

[sawdust]

Scripture says, the world cannot receive the spirit of truth. Your view is, it can.

Lie. We believe the same as you in that grace enables God to do what man cannot. The difference is you insist in the unbiblical approach of saving people from death first (regeneration) and then saving them from whatever you think it is they need saving from after being saved.

We say God frees the will from the flesh so that man can freely accept or reject the truth of God presented so that it truly is "whosoever" believes and not who God determines will believe and in believing, God keeps His word (as He is so fond of doing) and saves believers.

Scripture says the man of flesh (unregenerated) cannot submit to or obey God. Your view is, he can

Lie. Volition is a function of the soul not the flesh and gfrace contains the flesh so the soul can function according to it's own true desires without the influence of the flesh.

Scripture says the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he can

Lie. We say he cannot know the things that pertain to spiritual matters beyond the Gospel for the Gospel is presented as a moral dilemma so man can understand. ie. Right versus wrong resulting in judgement.

Your view is, he can. Scripture says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Your view is, it can.

Lie. You assume man is inherently evil (born with a corrupt heart) which, would have God culpable of creating man evil. You fail to see the innate corruption is in the body, not the soul. (heart) God creates all souls innocent knowing neither good nor evil. Evil is learned but so is good because God has never forsaken mankind.

Scripture says the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he is not.

Lie. Scripture says the flesh is opposed to God. The natural man cannot comprehend that which requires spiritual discerning.

Scripture says the gospel is hid. Your view is, the gospel is not hid.

Lie. The Gospel was hidden in the past and only remains hidden to those who reject it.

Jesus said not everyone hears. Your view is, everyone hears.

Lie. The Gospel has appeared to all men. It is presented to everyone, that doesn't mean everyone listens.

Scripture says flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. Your view is, the flesh can choose to make a decision a plethora of Scriptures say it cannot, to please God and bring forth fruit unto life.

Lie. The flesh does not make decisions of any kind. We have distinguished between the will and the flesh so many times throughout this thread yet you still cannot grasp something as basic as this.

Scripture says the devil has taken people captive to do his will. Your view is, man has a will that is free.

Lie. We say man's will is bound to sin unless God acts in grace which He does so man can decide for himself like every other creature who was free to decide like Lucifer, every angel, Adam and Christ.

Scripture says no man can come to God unless God draws them. Your view is, divine intervention is not necessary.

Lie. We have said time and time again God initiates and that without grace man would remain hopeless.

Scripture makes plain certain things are only known through the Spirit and revelation which you continually denigrate.

Lie. We have not denigrated anything. We have said God enables what man needs to believe (ie.frees the will). We understand differently to you and have given sound arguments as to why we believe differently.

Scripture shows over and over again from Genesis all the way through to Revelation that God reveals Himself differently from one person to the next.

Lie. God has shown Himself to everyone the same through the creation.

Your view is, God is unfair if He were to reveal Himself in any way differently from one person to the next.

Lie. What we view unfair is God making a person specifically for destruction and then blaming them for their destruction.

Your view is those you disagree with should preach in cemeteries, then you lie about conflating spiritual death with physical death.

Lie. Preaching in cemeteries is a joke and we do not conflate, we understand the difference and what it means. You don't.

Your view is to not only blaspheme God yourself, but agree with those who blaspheme God in other ways

Lie. It is purely your opinion we blaspheme God because you disagree with us. News flash Magenta, your opinion means nothing.

Along with other free willers, you come across as despising God's sovereignty, and call Him doing things for His own purposes doing them for no good reason.

Lie. We do not despise God's sovereignty. We despise you insisting God's power must be used the same way a bully would assume to use their power. We are grateful God is sovereign and doesn't throw His weight around like a bully.

No matter how you look at it, your theological stance on this issue directly contradicts and outright denies what the Bible explicitly articulates in a number of places, and you are not likely to change it any time soon because to bring your view into line with what Scripture actually teaches would bring your whole house of cards down, and demolish your vain self-exalting stance. You cannot have that, since you are far too attached to your ear-tickling doctrine. One could even say you were in love with it. You certainly love it more than the Truth of Scripture.

We disagree with your interpretation of what we say, not what the scriptures say. As shown above, you have misunderstood every step of the way. The question is, is it deliberate or are you truly that naive?

 

[sawdust]

It is not as if anyone is born a believer. Gosh. Nobody rejects the gospel to become an unbeliever. They are born that way.

We are not born unbelievers either. You can't not believe something you do not know. We are neutral in regards to God within our thinking and only become unbelievers or believers as the truth is presented which, God does from the moment we can think and thinking requires language so, not unbelievers at birth.

 

[Kroogz]

Yes! No one can decide to believe for himself in his natural state.
That is why we need the POWER of God's grace to free up our soul to decide what we want to believe

Many Christians have an sweet emotional response when they hear the word 'grace' mentioned.
But, they fail to realize that grace is a real power.
God's power that God provides to enable the helpless to function as needed.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, ​

for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Corinthians 12:9a​

When grace is drawing all men into salvation?
That grace power will suppress the depravity of the flesh.
Thus, squelching the sin nature's dominance over the soul.

In doing so, that soul which had been enslaved to the flesh, will be freed up and given a chance to think things through.

All men are at some point drawn by God. Those whop freely reject, God condemns and stops the drawing process.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11​

​

That is the Word of God.

Lie. We believe the same as you in that grace enables God to do what man cannot. The difference is you insist in the unbiblical approach of saving people from death first (regeneration) and then saving them from whatever you think it is they need saving from after being saved.

We say God frees the will from the flesh so that man can freely accept or reject the truth of God presented so that it truly is "whosoever" believes and not who God determines will believe and in believing, God keeps His word (as He is so fond of doing) and saves believers.



Lie. Volition is a function of the soul not the flesh and gfrace contains the flesh so the soul can function according to it's own true desires without the influence of the flesh.



Lie. We say he cannot know the things that pertain to spiritual matters beyond the Gospel for the Gospel is presented as a moral dilemma so man can understand. ie. Right versus wrong resulting in judgement.



Lie. You assume man is inherently evil (born with a corrupt heart) which, would have God culpable of creating man evil. You fail to see the innate corruption is in the body, not the soul. (heart) God creates all souls innocent knowing neither good nor evil. Evil is learned but so is good because God has never forsaken mankind.



Lie. Scripture says the flesh is opposed to God. The natural man cannot comprehend that which requires spiritual discerning.



Lie. The Gospel was hidden in the past and only remains hidden to those who reject it.



Lie. The Gospel has appeared to all men. It is presented to everyone, that doesn't mean everyone listens.



Lie. The flesh does not make decisions of any kind. We have distinguished between the will and the flesh so many times throughout this thread yet you still cannot grasp something as basic as this.



Lie. We say man's will is bound to sin unless God acts in grace which He does so man can decide for himself like every other creature who was free to decide like Lucifer, every angel, Adam and Christ.



Lie. We have said time and time again God initiates and that without grace man would remain hopeless.



Lie. We have not denigrated anything. We have said God enables what man needs to believe (ie.frees the will). We understand differently to you and have given sound arguments as to why we believe differently.



Lie. God has shown Himself to everyone the same through the creation.



Lie. What we view unfair is God making a person specifically for destruction and then blaming them for their destruction.



Lie. Preaching in cemeteries is a joke and we do not conflate, we understand the difference and what it means. You don't.



Lie. It is purely your opinion we blaspheme God because you disagree with us. News flash Magenta, your opinion means nothing.



Lie. We do not despise God's sovereignty. We despise you insisting God's power must be used the same way a bully would assume to use their power. We are grateful God is sovereign and doesn't throw His weight around like a bully.



We disagree with your interpretation of what we say, not what the scriptures say. As shown above, you have misunderstood every step of the way. The question is, is it deliberate or are you truly that naive?

Proverbs 27:15-16
A constant dripping on a rainy day and a contentious woman are alike— / restraining her is like holding back the wind or grasping oil with one’s right hand.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You are confusing a premonition for insight.

According to both Collins and Webster, insight involves a deep or penetrating understanding. In the Bible, this can take the form of divine revelation, where God reveals truth that a person could not have known otherwise. So when God appeared to Abimelech in a dream and told him that Sarah was Abraham’s wife (Genesis 20), that was not mere intuition or deduction; it was insight from God, a supernatural disclosure meant to protect both Abimelech and Sarah from sin.


….

 

[Genez]

Which is exactly what 2Thes 2:13 and 1Pet 1:2-5 teach. Notice the LOGICAL order of the phrases in both passages.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (ESV)
13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Sanctification = separation onto God.

When God's grace squelches the sin nature in the flesh?
That soul has been separated from the influence of the flesh, so the soul can choose that it wants to believe!


1 Peter 1:2–5 (ESV)
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus …

Obedience is a choice.

 

[HeIsHere]

We are not born unbelievers either. You can't not believe something you do not know. We are neutral in regards to God within our thinking and only become unbelievers or believers as the truth is presented which, God does from the moment we can think and thinking requires language so, not unbelievers at birth.

Thank you for posting this, interesting almost verbatim to my thoughts had I decided to respond.
I have grown weary of stating the obvious.

 

[Jordon]

Lie. We believe the same as you in that grace enables God to do what man cannot. The difference is you insist in the unbiblical approach of saving people from death first (regeneration) and then saving them from whatever you think it is they need saving from after being saved.

We say God frees the will from the flesh so that man can freely accept or reject the truth of God presented so that it truly is "whosoever" believes and not who God determines will believe and in believing, God keeps His word (as He is so fond of doing) and saves believers.



Lie. Volition is a function of the soul not the flesh and gfrace contains the flesh so the soul can function according to it's own true desires without the influence of the flesh.



Lie. We say he cannot know the things that pertain to spiritual matters beyond the Gospel for the Gospel is presented as a moral dilemma so man can understand. ie. Right versus wrong resulting in judgement.



Lie. You assume man is inherently evil (born with a corrupt heart) which, would have God culpable of creating man evil. You fail to see the innate corruption is in the body, not the soul. (heart) God creates all souls innocent knowing neither good nor evil. Evil is learned but so is good because God has never forsaken mankind.



Lie. Scripture says the flesh is opposed to God. The natural man cannot comprehend that which requires spiritual discerning.



Lie. The Gospel was hidden in the past and only remains hidden to those who reject it.



Lie. The Gospel has appeared to all men. It is presented to everyone, that doesn't mean everyone listens.



Lie. The flesh does not make decisions of any kind. We have distinguished between the will and the flesh so many times throughout this thread yet you still cannot grasp something as basic as this.



Lie. We say man's will is bound to sin unless God acts in grace which He does so man can decide for himself like every other creature who was free to decide like Lucifer, every angel, Adam and Christ.



Lie. We have said time and time again God initiates and that without grace man would remain hopeless.



Lie. We have not denigrated anything. We have said God enables what man needs to believe (ie.frees the will). We understand differently to you and have given sound arguments as to why we believe differently.



Lie. God has shown Himself to everyone the same through the creation.



Lie. What we view unfair is God making a person specifically for destruction and then blaming them for their destruction.



Lie. Preaching in cemeteries is a joke and we do not conflate, we understand the difference and what it means. You don't.



Lie. It is purely your opinion we blaspheme God because you disagree with us. News flash Magenta, your opinion means nothing.



Lie. We do not despise God's sovereignty. We despise you insisting God's power must be used the same way a bully would assume to use their power. We are grateful God is sovereign and doesn't throw His weight around like a bully.



We disagree with your interpretation of what we say, not what the scriptures say. As shown above, you have misunderstood every step of the way. The question is, is it deliberate or are you truly that naive?

You are not being accurate here however I'm not doing to resort to calling you lier, but truth is the will of the flesh does does hold it's self above Gods laws and is cited in scripture, not only for the unsaved but the saved to.

And your not being fair to a child of God because your not accepting the truth about what you've been rejecting, your post clearly demonstrates your entire post is personal to you, and not based on what the actually word of God says

 

[sawdust]

Who are the "we"? Each and every person in the world?

If when I was still not saved and still in the flesh, could have "fit into the categories", why would I need Jesus? As I said, you don't understand Federal Headship. But...since Christ chose me in Christ before the world began, then I was indeed predestined (as one of God's elect descendants of Abraham) to be conformed to Christ's image. God in me and through Christ fulfilled his promises that he made to his chosen covenant people, for he circumcised my heart so that I could love Him and He instilled the Fear of the Himself into my own heart to humble me. Both of these promises are unconditional and unilateral.

And you did not answer my question.

I have answered. You disagreeing with the answer does not equate to not answering.

Christ died for the ungodly. In this He demonstrated His love. Whether that person is a believer or not we all fit the category of ungodly. Not hard to understand.

 

[Jordon]

I have answered. You disagreeing with the answer does not equate to not answering.

Christ died for the ungodly. In this He demonstrated His love. Whether that person is a believer or not we all fit the category of ungodly. Not hard to understand.

actually a better way to put it is he gave up his life because his father will was complete in him. It was a battle he won the battle was over

And you or anyone else doesn't get to surrender there life to the lord until hill will is complete in you or anyone else

Which sadly is not going to happen for everyone.

 

[Jordon]

Still waiting for an answer to 20513 @Bible_Highlighter I know you've seen it ?

 

[Genez]

According to both Collins and Webster, insight involves a deep or penetrating understanding. In the Bible, this can take the form of divine revelation, where God reveals truth that a person could not have known otherwise. So when God appeared to Abimelech in a dream and told him that Sarah was Abraham’s wife (Genesis 20), that was not mere intuition or deduction; it was insight from God, a supernatural disclosure meant to protect both Abimelech and Sarah from sin..

I have had premonitions.
I have also been granted rare moments for insight.

Premonitions require simply discerning what one is shown.

Insight, by contrast, requires the prerequisite of first gaining knowledge, so that you will have what is needed to think with to be able to break down correctly something that has been previously hidden.

Note the following, what it says about knowledge....

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Philippians 1:9​

King Abimelech did not need to sit in Bible classes to first learn the needed doctrines to be able correlate in understanding what he was shown in the dream.

Biblical insight requires one first acquiring and possessing the needed knowledge to make the needed conclusion.

 

[Genez]

Thank you for posting this, interesting almost verbatim to my thoughts had I decided to respond.
I have grown weary of stating the obvious.

Getting us to grow weary might be the goal of the plan.

"At all costs!
Disagree, and disagree with them some more!
No matter how they may have it reasoned out."

I call it...

The "Devil's resentment."

 

[HeIsHere]

Lie. We believe the same as you in that grace enables God to do what man cannot. The difference is you insist in the unbiblical approach of saving people from death first (regeneration) and then saving them from whatever you think it is they need saving from after being saved.

We say God frees the will from the flesh so that man can freely accept or reject the truth of God presented so that it truly is "whosoever" believes and not who God determines will believe and in believing, God keeps His word (as He is so fond of doing) and saves believers.



Lie. Volition is a function of the soul not the flesh and gfrace contains the flesh so the soul can function according to it's own true desires without the influence of the flesh.



Lie. We say he cannot know the things that pertain to spiritual matters beyond the Gospel for the Gospel is presented as a moral dilemma so man can understand. ie. Right versus wrong resulting in judgement.



Lie. You assume man is inherently evil (born with a corrupt heart) which, would have God culpable of creating man evil. You fail to see the innate corruption is in the body, not the soul. (heart) God creates all souls innocent knowing neither good nor evil. Evil is learned but so is good because God has never forsaken mankind.



Lie. Scripture says the flesh is opposed to God. The natural man cannot comprehend that which requires spiritual discerning.



Lie. The Gospel was hidden in the past and only remains hidden to those who reject it.



Lie. The Gospel has appeared to all men. It is presented to everyone, that doesn't mean everyone listens.



Lie. The flesh does not make decisions of any kind. We have distinguished between the will and the flesh so many times throughout this thread yet you still cannot grasp something as basic as this.



Lie. We say man's will is bound to sin unless God acts in grace which He does so man can decide for himself like every other creature who was free to decide like Lucifer, every angel, Adam and Christ.



Lie. We have said time and time again God initiates and that without grace man would remain hopeless.



Lie. We have not denigrated anything. We have said God enables what man needs to believe (ie.frees the will). We understand differently to you and have given sound arguments as to why we believe differently.



Lie. God has shown Himself to everyone the same through the creation.



Lie. What we view unfair is God making a person specifically for destruction and then blaming them for their destruction.



Lie. Preaching in cemeteries is a joke and we do not conflate, we understand the difference and what it means. You don't.



Lie. It is purely your opinion we blaspheme God because you disagree with us. News flash Magenta, your opinion means nothing.



Lie. We do not despise God's sovereignty. We despise you insisting God's power must be used the same way a bully would assume to use their power. We are grateful God is sovereign and doesn't throw His weight around like a bully.



We disagree with your interpretation of what we say, not what the scriptures say. As shown above, you have misunderstood every step of the way. The question is, is it deliberate or are you truly that naive?

Appreciate your patience, time and effort.

To assert that some people are created and elected for salvation and the rest are created for destruction..... if the first one is true, then so is the second and there is no way around that even though they have their double speak.

What a dark and disturbed view of salvation.

 

[HeIsHere]

Getting us to grow weary might be the goal of the plan.

"At all costs!
Disagree, and disagree with them some more!
No matter how they may have it reasoned out."

I call it...

The "Devil's resentment."

Sure seems that way.
I know that some here on this message board have been convinced by them.