By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

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brightfame52 said:
Yes you deny it. You teach people Christ died for are under Gods wrath. See this thread is about the elect, while being children of wrath by nature as others, are not never under Gods wrath. One of the reasons is because of 1 Jn 2:2 Gods wrath has been propitiated for them.
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I understand that is your supposition. However, there is only One Elect, Who is/was/always will be holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens ... and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens

The rest of humankind (you/me/all other believers included) ...

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Even in the future, after we have been made like Him, we will be subservient to Him and we will count it our great honor to serve Him:

Revelation 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

You considering yourself equal with the Lord Jesus Christ, Who alone is/was/always will be holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens, is the blasphemy of which you accuse others. :rolleyes:



 
reneweddaybyday said:
I understand that is your supposition. However, there is only One Elect, Who is/was/always will be holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens ... and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens

The rest of humankind (you/me/all other believers included) ...

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Even in the future, after we have been made like Him, we will be subservient to Him and we will count it our great honor to serve Him:

Revelation 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

You considering yourself equal with the Lord Jesus Christ, Who alone is/was/always will be holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens, is the blasphemy of which you accuse others. :rolleyes:
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You still deny 1 Jn 2:2 ! And blaspheme. You detract from Christs blood as that being what propitiated Gods wrath, you say its merely sufficient to propitiate without actually doing it. Thats not what 1 Jn 2:2 state !
 
brightfame52 said:
You still deny 1 Jn 2:2 ! And blaspheme. You detract from Christs blood as that being what propitiated Gods wrath, you say its merely sufficient to propitiate without actually doing it. Thats not what 1 Jn 2:2 state !
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1 John 2:2 states:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



That Scripture conflicts with your ideology does not mean that I "detract from Christs blood as that being what propitiated Gods wrath" or that I "say its merely sufficient to propitiate without actually doing it". Those are your words, projected onto me because you cannot accept the truth of Scripture.

I say exactly what Scripture says and I do not have to modify/add anything to Scripture by insinuating that the "the whole world" really doesn't mean "the whole world" but only some in a category you have devised in your own mind due to your inability to let go of your preconceived notion.



 
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reneweddaybyday said:
1 John 2:2 states:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



That Scripture conflicts with your ideology does not mean that I "detract from Christs blood as that being what propitiated Gods wrath" or that I "say its merely sufficient to propitiate without actually doing it". Those are your words, projected onto me because you cannot accept the truth of Scripture.

I say exactly what Scripture says and I do not have to modify/add anything to Scripture by insinuating that the "the whole world" really doesn't mean "the whole world" but only some in a category you have devised in your own mind due to your inability to let go of your preconceived notion.
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Yes it does mean you detract from Christs blood. For what exactly propitiates God ?
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes it does mean you detract from Christs blood. For what exactly propitiates God ?
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Neither rhetoric nor repeated opinion constitute evidence. Perhaps you should explain how, in your view, RDBD's position detracts from Christ's blood.
 
infinitekhanol said:
God dealt with David/Abraham/Jacob as "believers". which they were. Scripture tells why this is so.
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Oh, I forgot to mention that even though God dealt with them as believers, (please refer to post #161,@OrphanedRepublican ) David actually suffered the wrath of God in many instances against his ungodliness, including in the instance you gave, his repentance not withstanding!!
 
infinitekhanol said:
Oh, I forgot to mention that even though God dealt with them as believers, (please refer to post #161,@OrphanedRepublican ) David actually suffered the wrath of God in many instances against his ungodliness, including in the instance you gave, his repentance not withstanding!!
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Also see Acts 9: 11 -16 --- Jesus discussion with Ananias about Paul for further information
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes it does mean you detract from Christs blood. For what exactly propitiates God ?
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Here is what you submitted in Post #52 when you first defined the word "propitiation hilasmos" :

quote=brightfame52​
​
That word propitiation hilasmos:​
​
a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,​
​
end quote​


and here in red and blue is what you neglected to include in your definition of hilasmos:

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease(satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").​
​

What you left out (in red and blue) answers your question "what exactly propitiates God ?"




Information from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Propitiation:

...​
​
hilasmos, is found in the New Testament only in 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10. Here the idea is active grace, or mercy, or friendliness. The teaching corresponds exactly with that in Romans. "Jesus Christ the righteous" is our "Advocate (margin "Helper") with the Father," because He is active mercy concerning (peri) our sins and those of the whole world. ​
​
...​
​
It is especially to be noted that all provisions for this friendly relation as between God and offending man find their initiation and provision in God and are under His direction, but involve the active response of man. All heathen and unworthy conceptions are removed from the Christian notion of propitiation by the fact that God Himself proposed, or "set forth," Christ as the "mercy-seat," and that this is the supreme expression of ultimate love. God had all the while been merciful, friendly, "passing over" man's sins with no apparently adequate, or just, ground for doing so. Now in the blood of Christ sin is condemned and expiated, and God is able to establish and maintain His character for righteousness, while He continues and extends His dealing in gracious love with sinners who exercise faith in Jesus. The propitiation originates with God, not to appease Himself, but to justify Himself in His uniform kindness to men deserving harshness.​
​
...​
​


And, again, from Vines Expository Dictionary:

Propitiation:​
​
[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]​
​
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.​
​
​
 
reneweddaybyday said:
Here is what you submitted in Post #52 when you first defined the word "propitiation hilasmos" :

quote=brightfame52​
​
That word propitiation hilasmos:​
​
a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,​
​
end quote​


and here in red and blue is what you neglected to include in your definition of hilasmos:

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease(satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").​
​

What you left out (in red and blue) answers your question "what exactly propitiates God ?"




Information from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Propitiation:

...​
​
hilasmos, is found in the New Testament only in 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10. Here the idea is active grace, or mercy, or friendliness. The teaching corresponds exactly with that in Romans. "Jesus Christ the righteous" is our "Advocate (margin "Helper") with the Father," because He is active mercy concerning (peri) our sins and those of the whole world. ​
​
...​
​
It is especially to be noted that all provisions for this friendly relation as between God and offending man find their initiation and provision in God and are under His direction, but involve the active response of man. All heathen and unworthy conceptions are removed from the Christian notion of propitiation by the fact that God Himself proposed, or "set forth," Christ as the "mercy-seat," and that this is the supreme expression of ultimate love. God had all the while been merciful, friendly, "passing over" man's sins with no apparently adequate, or just, ground for doing so. Now in the blood of Christ sin is condemned and expiated, and God is able to establish and maintain His character for righteousness, while He continues and extends His dealing in gracious love with sinners who exercise faith in Jesus. The propitiation originates with God, not to appease Himself, but to justify Himself in His uniform kindness to men deserving harshness.​
​
...​
​


And, again, from Vines Expository Dictionary:

Propitiation:​
​
[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]​
​
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.​
​
​
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For what exactly propitiates God ?
 
brightfame52 said:
Your answer is all bungled up, Im going to ask once more, and you should be able to answer in a few words. For what exactly propitiates God ?
Click to expand...
From Post #191 ... the part of the definition of the word "propitiation" (Greek hilasmos) you left out of your Post #52 when you initially submitted the definition.

here in red and blue is what you neglected to include in your definition of hilasmos:

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease(satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").​
​
​
​
What you left out (in red and blue) answers your question "what exactly propitiates God ?"

Interesting that you would neglect to include the words in red and blue in your Post #52, brightfame52.

Why would you do that?

Is it because the inclusion of the words does not fit with your dogma? :sneaky:


And again, from Vines Expository Dictionary:

Propitiation:​
​
[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]​
​
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.​
​
 
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reneweddaybyday said:
From Post #191 ... the part of the definition of the word "propitiation" (Greek hilasmos) you left out of your Post #52 when you initially submitted the definition.

here in red and blue is what you neglected to include in your definition of hilasmos:

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease(satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").​
​
​
​
What you left out (in red and blue) answers your question "what exactly propitiates God ?"

Interesting that you would neglect to include the words in red and blue in your Post #52, brightfame52.

Why would you do that?

Is it because the inclusion of the words does not fit with your dogma? :sneaky:


And again, from Vines Expository Dictionary:

Propitiation:​
​
[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]​
​
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.​
​
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Okay I'm finished with you. You scared !
 
brightfame52 said:
Okay I'm finished with you. You scared !
Click to expand...
Nope ... not "scared !" at all. Just shining the light of Scripture on your dogma ... your dogma fails under the scrutiny of Scripture ...

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Let the whole world be the whole world and let the full definition of propitiation (Greek hilasmos) be the full definition. God is still sovereign overall ... even when He allows mankind to reject.


Propitiation:​
​
[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]​
​
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.​
​
​



 
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