God dealt with David/Abraham/Jacob as "believers". which they were. Scripture tells why this is so.
By Nature Children of Wrath as others !
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Please note the difference:
Elect = the Lord Jesus Christ
elect = mankind in general
brightfame52 consistently refers to believers as "Elect". There is only One Who is "Elect". All the rest of the progeny of Adam are "elect" (imho) and in our day and time, until born again, we are all children of wrath, even as others according to Eph 2:3.
if you still don't understand my point, please let me know and I will be happy to explain further.
God's word is powerful, mighty to save
The thief has come only to steal to kill and destroy you but I am come that ye might have LIFE and that you might have it more abundantly ... that's gospel, that will save.
Then you are advocating the act of believing is what propitiated God, removed His wrath, rather than Christ. Tats Blasphemy !
blasphemy to believe God???
It's blasphemy when one does not believe God !Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Blasphemy for not believing Christ alone propitiated Gods wrath for them He died for.blasphemy to believe God???
Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
You deny that verse. You people who Christ died for are under Gods wrath, this verse says they arent !
Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hold back, to restrain.
In vs 19, we see what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is mankind who restrains. It is not God Who causes mankind to suppress/restrain.
In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why they are without excuse.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hold back, to restrain.
In vs 19, we see what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is mankind who restrains. It is not God Who causes mankind to suppress/restrain.
In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why they are without excuse.
Someone has told you in previous threads that Salvation is for the whole world and that it is a free gift which you seem to agree with. Since it is free, we did not work for it. Also, since it is a gift, we have to accept it in order to take the benefit of the gift, or rather, for it to be meaningful to us as individuals otherwise, it becomes of no use to us. I agree totally with that thread.
Though, the free gift is for everyone, there is a personal action to take on our part in order to receive the gift and that is to believe. The reason why we receive the gift of the holy Spirit at the time we believe ---- to guide us into all truth
It is equally right for me to say that , that personal action to take is to repent and believe because it is necessary we recognize and acknowledge our sins mistakes and errors and make concrete decision followed with concrete action to repent of them and the first step of that concrete action is to believe.
Please can you give your meaning of the elect/chosen of God. I think if we are having different meanings attached to these words including Predestination, foreknowledge of God, we will never come to agreement. I might as well sign off.
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Getting back to the wrath-worthy nature spoken of in Eph 2:1-3
The covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy specified a number of rituals for
addressing one's behavior, but none to address one's moral perception, i.e.
the conscience.
Although Christ's followers are stuck with their natural self's unholy moral
compass while in this life, it's possible to at least sanitize it. According to
Heb 9:1-14, Christ's blood does this for us; and we never need to get our
conscience sanitized ever again, i.e. the one time is good for all time.
_
Getting back to the wrath-worthy nature spoken of in Eph 2:1-3
The covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy specified a number of rituals for
addressing one's behavior, but none to address one's moral perception, i.e.
the conscience.
Although Christ's followers are stuck with their natural self's unholy moral
compass while in this life, it's possible to at least sanitize it. According to
Heb 9:1-14, Christ's blood does this for us; and we never need to get our
conscience sanitized ever again, i.e. the one time is good for all time.
_
Of course, God"s word is powerful and mighty to safe. (but we must present the word holistically).
There is the goodness of God and there is his severity. It is all good news depending on the way and manner you are presenting them. If we actually try to analyze your quote above, we will find that it actually brings out "the two sides of the coin".
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I do not deny the truth of 1 John 2:2 ... I do not agree with your misconstruction of the verse.
The efficacy of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is sufficient for the propitiation of our sins: and not for ours only, but also the sins of the whole world. The fact that some do not benefit from the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is the result of their suppressing/restraining the truth:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hold back, to restrain.
In vs 19, we see what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is mankind who restrains. It is not God Who causes mankind to suppress/restrain.
In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why they are without excuse.
Yes you deny it. You teach people Christ died for are under Gods wrath. See this thread is about the elect, while being children of wrath by nature as others, are not never under Gods wrath. One of the reasons is because of 1 Jn 2:2 Gods wrath has been propitiated for them.
renew
You just down graded the Sacrifice of Christ, and took away its propitiation, and reduced it to merely being sufficient to propitiate! Blasphemy friend, for it actually propitiated God !
You just down graded the Sacrifice of Christ, and took away its propitiation, and reduced it to merely being sufficient to propitiate! Blasphemy friend, for it actually propitiated God !