Being born of water and Spirit
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Well, I do agree that Natural Birth is not "how to be born again." But it isn't just because rebirth avoids going through the birth canal a 2nd time! It's also because rebirth avoids the need for water altogether, whether Natural Birth (amniotic fluid) or Water Baptism!
The amniotic fluid in Natural Birth serves to show the necessity of a spiritual agency in order to receive spiritual rebirth. It is a comparison. Just as becoming a human requires birth through physical water, ie the amniotic fluid, so spiritual rebirth requires a spiritual agency in order to effect that result.
And what is that "spiritual agency?" It is faith in the heavenly Christ. We do that by spiritual discernment, responding to a spiritual revelation in order to receive spiritual benefits. Jesus was arguing that just as natural birth requires water so spiritual rebirth requires spirituality. We are responding to a divine revelation through the Holy Spirit.
But turning back to the material substance of water in either Natural Birth or Water Baptism turns the idea on its head. Instead of looking to the Spirit we then look to earthly substances, like physical birth and water baptism. That isn't, I believe, what Jesus intended to convey. I don't think he was referring to Natural Birth nor to Water Baptism in order to effect spiritual rebirth.
Rather, he was, I think, referring Nicodemus to spiritual things. He was using his spiritual word to convey spiritual revelation to Nicodemus in order to get him to think outside of the box of "earthly elements" like water completely.
The amniotic fluid in Natural Birth serves to show the necessity of a spiritual agency in order to receive spiritual rebirth. It is a comparison. Just as becoming a human requires birth through physical water, ie the amniotic fluid, so spiritual rebirth requires a spiritual agency in order to effect that result.
And what is that "spiritual agency?" It is faith in the heavenly Christ. We do that by spiritual discernment, responding to a spiritual revelation in order to receive spiritual benefits. Jesus was arguing that just as natural birth requires water so spiritual rebirth requires spirituality. We are responding to a divine revelation through the Holy Spirit.
But turning back to the material substance of water in either Natural Birth or Water Baptism turns the idea on its head. Instead of looking to the Spirit we then look to earthly substances, like physical birth and water baptism. That isn't, I believe, what Jesus intended to convey. I don't think he was referring to Natural Birth nor to Water Baptism in order to effect spiritual rebirth.
Rather, he was, I think, referring Nicodemus to spiritual things. He was using his spiritual word to convey spiritual revelation to Nicodemus in order to get him to think outside of the box of "earthly elements" like water completely.
Many of these things you speak of are certainly unnecessary. However, some of it is at least partially due to your misunderstanding of something someone said.
That race and ethnicity thing was not anything like what you thought.
While telling others not to judge you - be careful to consider what they have said before you judge the intent of what they said. Yes, I agree that some things probably just shouldn't be said. But, I am referring to the rest...
That race and ethnicity thing was not anything like what you thought.
While telling others not to judge you - be careful to consider what they have said before you judge the intent of what they said. Yes, I agree that some things probably just shouldn't be said. But, I am referring to the rest...
How odd you think this some kind of false accusation.
It's exactly what you are doing
While saying 99% of people would disagree with me for saying so when I posted
the actual words of Jesus as recorded, which were not what you claim He said.
It's exactly what you are doing
While saying 99% of people would disagree with me for saying so when I posted
the actual words of Jesus as recorded, which were not what you claim He said.
Do you really think that's what I am doing? That's absurd. Of course you will get nothing but staunch resistance from me over that. smh.
What you said is a lie.
Christ never said that "water baptism is righteous".
What Jesus said is that HIS Water Baptism "fulfilled all righteousness".
And that is not water being "righteous".
That is Jesus, explaining to John the Baptist, who is wondering why He is baptising the SINLESS SON OF GOD, ......
He does not understand this....
So, Jesus is explaining...that he must complete all the righteousness of a human being, so that he can lay down this LIFE that has completed it, for the sin of the world.
Christ never said that "water baptism is righteous".
What Jesus said is that HIS Water Baptism "fulfilled all righteousness".
And that is not water being "righteous".
That is Jesus, explaining to John the Baptist, who is wondering why He is baptising the SINLESS SON OF GOD, ......
He does not understand this....
So, Jesus is explaining...that he must complete all the righteousness of a human being, so that he can lay down this LIFE that has completed it, for the sin of the world.
-
1
- Show all
Of course I do, because you have claimed Jesus said something
He did not, and what's worse, you repeatedly refuse to admit it.
It is hardly absurd when the proof is right under your nose despite your denials.
syh all you want. You should return to accepting what the
Bible plainly states instead of substituting your own words.
He did not, and what's worse, you repeatedly refuse to admit it.
It is hardly absurd when the proof is right under your nose despite your denials.
syh all you want. You should return to accepting what the
Bible plainly states instead of substituting your own words.
I agree with the idea that Jesus is certainly trying to explain heavenly things to Nicodemus and He employs the use of comparisons in order to illustrate what He's trying to say.
Consider that Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." meaning that if the water component in "water and spirit" is the amniotic fluid of live birth then that would just be a reference to being born of flesh and not being born of Spirit.
Remember, John 1 says that being born of flesh has no bearing on being born again. Just the whole live birth angle with being born of "water and Spirit" makes no sense to me for so many reasons.
John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Consider that Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." meaning that if the water component in "water and spirit" is the amniotic fluid of live birth then that would just be a reference to being born of flesh and not being born of Spirit.
Remember, John 1 says that being born of flesh has no bearing on being born again. Just the whole live birth angle with being born of "water and Spirit" makes no sense to me for so many reasons.
John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
No you're wrong and I already proved that twice in this thread. The thing that was righteous is the water baptism and getting the water baptism is fulfilling all righteousness which is what Jesus said. If you say Jesus didn't say that then you're a liar and bearing false witness of God at this point, both which are sins.
Getting water baptized to fulfill all righteousness only makes sense if water baptism is righteous otherwise it would be a dead work. Therefore Jesus said water baptism is righteous. Fact.
I really don't care what you say about me. I am in the right and feel peace about it and will continue to preach that water baptism is righteous. I am so sorry you don't like that but you'll get over it eventually.
I really don't care what you say about me. I am in the right and feel peace about it and will continue to preach that water baptism is righteous. I am so sorry you don't like that but you'll get over it eventually.
I see your point, I guess I just see it a little differently. Matthew 3:15 my refer only to the Lord in its context; but I do believe it demonstrates the importance of baptism as an act of obedience for the believer. And I do believe baptism is necessary for a believer to "fulfill all righteousness."
i am PURELY speaking of to that which SAVES us = HIS BLOOD versus works/religion based false salvation
PURELY comparing ALL religion to SALVATION from God's Perspective = Scripture
No condemnation to religious works that glorify the LORD done from heart of faith = NOT for Salvation buy to show love, mercy and compassion to others in need.
PURELY comparing ALL religion to SALVATION from God's Perspective = Scripture
No condemnation to religious works that glorify the LORD done from heart of faith = NOT for Salvation buy to show love, mercy and compassion to others in need.