Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

[mailmandan]

This is the old stand by excuse for those in the corner. "You just don't understand because you don't have the spirit like me."

Paul was very clear in 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You rail against the Church of Christ but I have never seen them resort to such a defense.

The Holy Spirit

1. Hughes in his book says that many young people within the church of Christ think their traditional view of the Holy Spirit is "Lashing the Spirit of God to an objective book of paper and ink—or, indeed, circumscribing the Spirit with any kind of rational constraints—ultimately impoverished the soul and drained life of its meaning." Does this charge concern you?

2. Have you arbitrarily put the Holy Spirit in a box by ignoring the work the work that He does: Holy Spirit?

3. Does the Holy Spirit indwell a person (John 14:17; Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 3:16-19; 2 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 4:13-17)?

4. Isn't the Holy Spirit's activity on a person so important that he cannot even receive spiritual reality without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 12:3)? Isn't natural man so at enmity with God that without the Spirit he cannot do God's will (Romans 8:6-7)?

SOME IMPORTANT PASSAGES TO CONSIDER. When we asked former Church of Christ preacher Jerrel Kratt what passages he considers most important in helping people escape from legalism, he suggested these: (1.) Romans 4 and justification by faith for Abraham before he was circumcised. Paul refers to Genesis 15, where Abraham simply accepted the promise of God and hadn't acted on it yet for several years to come. (2.) Law cannot save, it can only condemn. It convicts the conscience. The spirit gives life, the new covenant is not a covenant of death (it doesn't convict sin). See 2 Corinthians 3; Romans 7:1-8:1; Galatians 3:11. Rather, the new covenant is a covenant of life! (3.) We are under grace not law (Romans 6:14). Salvation is by grace through faith, not works that no man boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Bible Questions for the Church of Christ - Faith Facts

They simply follow the example of the Bereans.

Teaching salvation by "water and works" and denying the accompanying work of the Holy Spirit is not following the example of the Bereans.

Your self judgement that you are spirit led and I am not is a sign of a haughty spirit, I suggest you read Proverbs 16:18. Just because I don't agree with your doctrine does not mean I am void of the Spirit of God.

Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church (and I also temporarily attended the church of Christ) I did not understand either. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. It's not having a haughty spirit to acknowledge that apart from the Holy Spirit, the natural man remains spiritually discerned and cannot understand. It's also not having a haughty spirit to acknowledge that Christ is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. We need to make sure that we are not void of the Spirit of God. I've heard many people who attend various false religions and cults and teach opposing doctrines on how man is saved claim they have received the Holy Spirit. Everyone can't be right. There is only one way.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I did not say faith/works for salvation. We are not saved by faith and works. Works are produced from faith and salvation. They are not the means of our salvation. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all (says-claims to have faith but has no works) (given time to produce them) demonstrates there is no root.

Every COC person I know of agrees with this, without faith you cannot possibly perform the commanded baptism because without faith you only got wet, but to not be baptized is to not have faith because it is a command of God therefore a requirement toward salvation (the word "toward" was used here purposely, faith and baptism are not the only requirement, but all requirements must include faith)

Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Paul - Ephesians 2:8,9) -- "saved through faith, not works" is not the same message of "faith only" (James - James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith that remains "alone" -- "barren of works." Works-salvationists are unable to grasp this truth.

Here is the most common misuse of Ephesians 2, Paul here to the Corinthians is rebuking those that tried to obtain their salvation by continuing in the Mosaic law and not the Law of Christ, Paul here refers to the Mosaic Law as the law of works...
two different things so forget about using Eph. 2 as a supporting argument, you only completely contradict the teaching of James

Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (obviously, this was not a bare profession of faith, because Jesus said) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

The thief on the cross had a change of heart in his final moments and placed his faith in Jesus for salvation and was saved. Now how many good works was the thief supposed to accomplish on the cross in those final moments before his death? His rebuke of the other thief and confession of faith in Jesus was sufficient enough to confirm his faith and demonstrate that it was not a bare profession of faith.

Not at all. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:2-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Your theology wants salvation by works.

Now comes the thief on the cross, your in the wrong dispensation, the thief died under the old dispensation, it matters not if the thief was baptized or not, the only thing that matters is the Lord spoke the words that the thief would be with him.

Christ could forgive and save the thief without breaking His new law (the Law of Christ) as the Law of Christ becomes of no effect until the death of the testator:

Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

You and I or have no such promise, we must Obey the Gospel.

 

[preston39]

...Christ did not add baptism as a requirement.....

N...

Not biblical...suggest further study of scriptures.

 

[mailmandan]

Every COC person I know of agrees with this, without faith you cannot possibly perform the commanded baptism because without faith you only got wet, but to not be baptized is to not have faith because it is a command of God therefore a requirement toward salvation (the word "toward" was used here purposely, faith and baptism are not the only requirement, but all requirements must include faith)

You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. It was an established fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17 received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and what did Paul say in Acts 16:31? Faith is not baptism and those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, have faith before water baptism. Faith in Christ is established before water baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.

Here is the most common misuse of Ephesians 2, Paul here to the Corinthians is rebuking those that tried to obtain their salvation by continuing in the Mosaic law and not the Law of Christ, Paul here refers to the Mosaic Law as the law of works...two different things so forget about using Eph. 2 as a supporting argument, you only completely contradict the teaching of James

Both Roman Catholics and those who attend the church of Christ try to use this bogus argument in an attempt to try and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law of Moses). Here is the problem with that argument:

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works/works of faith from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works/works of faith) argument is bogus. I once hear someone who attends the church of Christ make this statement - "It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us." Does Jesus really need our help? Is He an ALL-sufficient Savior or an IN-sufficient Savior? Paul made it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) so it is not merely specific works of the law but works in general that do not save. I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved through faith "conjoined with works" and I've heard Roman Catholics say we are saved through faith "infused with works." Both groups are erroneously trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

Now comes the thief on the cross, your in the wrong dispensation, the thief died under the old dispensation, it matters not if the thief was baptized or not, the only thing that matters is the Lord spoke the words that the thief would be with him.

Funny how some people who attend the church of Christ will use that argument in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" while others will argue that maybe he was already previously baptized. I've heard people in the CoC use the argument that prior to Pentecost, water baptism was not necessary for salvation but after Pentecost it is to get around the thief on the cross, yet they will also say that when John says, "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins," this means that baptism obtains the remission of sins, yet when John spoke these words, this was a different dispensation. hmm... What say you?

Christ could forgive and save the thief without breaking His new law (the Law of Christ) as the Law of Christ becomes of no effect until the death of the testator:

Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

You and I or have no such promise, we must Obey the Gospel.

This is the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Water baptism was not absolutely necessary for salvation in either Covenant. Galatians 6:2 - Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. This pertains to love for one another and not salvation by water baptism. Also, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws or statutes to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[Jabberjaw]

You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. It was an established fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17 received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and what did Paul say in Acts 16:31? Faith is not baptism and those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, have faith before water baptism. Faith in Christ is established before water baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.

It is impossible to baptize a none believer, I know you try to find fault in the teachings of CoC, they don't teach that baptism will make one believe so you should stop miss quoting them on that account.

Now you bring in for your support of your argument the baptism of the HS, which is not taught in the scriptures to be a saving baptism, there is only one saving baptism Eph 4:5 :

Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

You are referring to the HS being given to the Gentile (Cornelius and his house) same as the Jew (apostles) fulfilling the prophecy of Joel spoke of in Acts 2:14

No Peter did not preach two baptisms, He preached what he was commissioned to do, water baptism, and he does so in Acts 10:47

Both Roman Catholics and those who attend the church of Christ try to use this bogus argument in an attempt to try and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law of Moses). Here is the problem with that argument:

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works/works of faith from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works/works of faith) argument is bogus. I once hear someone who attends the church of Christ make this statement - "It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us." Does Jesus really need our help? Is He an ALL-sufficient Savior or an IN-sufficient Savior? Paul made it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) so it is not merely specific works of the law but works in general that do not save. I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved through faith "conjoined with works" and I've heard Roman Catholics say we are saved through faith "infused with works." Both groups are erroneously trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

No CoC I know of promotes merit salvation, it is the denominations that try and use Ephesians 2 in attempt to remove "all works" from salvation, if anyone could earn their salvation we would not have needed the Christ, you attempt to twist Paul's teaching of this when he refers to the Mosaic Law as works, taking it out of context to promote the false teaching of faith only putting the book in contradiction with James.

Funny how some people who attend the church of Christ will use that argument in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" while others will argue that maybe he was already previously baptized. I've heard people in the CoC use the argument that prior to Pentecost, water baptism was not necessary for salvation but after Pentecost it is to get around the thief on the cross, yet they will also say that when John says, "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins," this means that baptism obtains the remission of sins, yet when John spoke these words, this was a different dispensation. hmm... What say you?

Baptism was brought by God through John the baptizer, it didn't begin on Pentecost, this is why Jesus was baptized, not to remit His sins, he had none, but because it was commanded and He (like us) had to do it, but unlike Him, we have sins that bulls and goats blood would not wash, only the blood of the Christ will cleans our sins making baptism spiritual representation of us burying our old man sin, coming in contact with the cleansing blood of Christ, washing away our sins and to arise, resurrected a new man to walk in newness of life, it is spiritual, because it is spiritual it requires faith.

Your thief on the cross argument is in the wrong dispensation, He saved the thief because he could without breaking His own law, His law isn't in effect until His death, you and I don't have the promise He made the thief.

 

[mailmandan]

It is impossible to baptize a none believer, I know you try to find fault in the teachings of CoC, they don't teach that baptism will make one believe so you should stop miss quoting them on that account.

I was not misquoting them. I was simply clarifying that you don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers and that belief is established before water baptism and we are saved through believing in Him (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..).

Now you bring in for your support of your argument the baptism of the HS, which is not taught in the scriptures to be a saving baptism, there is only one saving baptism Eph 4:5:

Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The CoC confuses water baptism with Spirit baptism which causes a lot of confusion. Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

You are referring to the HS being given to the Gentile (Cornelius and his house) same as the Jew (apostles) fulfilling the prophecy of Joel spoke of in Acts 2:14

The baptism with the Holy Spirit (that these Gentiles received in Acts 11:16-17) was previously foretold of in (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5).

No Peter did not preach two baptisms, He preached what he was commissioned to do, water baptism, and he does so in Acts 10:47

By saying one baptism in Ephesians 4:5, Paul did not mean that there is only one baptism that exists such as water baptism but not Spirit baptism or Spirit baptism but not water baptism and he also did not mean that water baptism and Spirit baptism together make up one baptism either.

In Matthew 3:11, we see 3 different baptisms - I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Again, in Acts 1:5, we read - for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. *TWO SEPARATE BAPTISMS.

*Again, there is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

No CoC I know of promotes merit salvation, it is the denominations that try and use Ephesians 2 in attempt to remove "all works" from salvation, if anyone could earn their salvation we would not have needed the Christ, you attempt to twist Paul's teaching of this when he refers to the Mosaic Law as works, taking it out of context to promote the false teaching of faith only putting the book in contradiction with James.

To say that we must accomplish a check list of works in order to be saved, then say those works do not merit salvation (not even in part) is an oxymoron. I was not twisting Paul's words in Ephesians 2:8,9 or in Titus 3:5 or in 2 Timothy 1:9. Show me where Paul said we are "saved through faith AND works," or where he specifically says that we are "saved by works."

Baptism was brought by God through John the baptizer, it didn't begin on Pentecost, this is why Jesus was baptized, not to remit His sins, he had none, but because it was commanded and He (like us) had to do it, but unlike Him, we have sins that bulls and goats blood would not wash, only the blood of the Christ will cleans our sins making baptism spiritual representation of us burying our old man sin, coming in contact with the cleansing blood of Christ, washing away our sins and to arise, resurrected a new man to walk in newness of life, it is spiritual, because it is spiritual it requires faith.

As long as you continue to confuse the symbol with the reality, you will remain confused. You and the CoC incorrectly conclude that redemption, the forgiveness of sin takes place in the waters of baptism, yet redemption, the forgiveness of sin is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Redemption is through His blood (and not through plain ordinary H20) and the forgiveness of sin takes place when we BELIEVE before we are water baptized. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Therefore, the Biblical conclusion is that redemption, the forgiveness of sin takes place when we BELIEVE IN HIM before we are water baptized (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9).

Your thief on the cross argument is in the wrong dispensation, He saved the thief because he could without breaking His own law, His law isn't in effect until His death, you and I don't have the promise He made the thief.

You did not answer my question from post #704 about the thief on the cross.

Funny how some people who attend the church of Christ will use that argument in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" while others will argue that maybe he was already previously baptized. I've heard people in the CoC use the argument that prior to Pentecost, water baptism was not necessary for salvation but after Pentecost it is to get around the thief on the cross, yet they will also say that when John says, "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins," this means that baptism obtains the remission of sins, yet when John spoke these words, this was a different dispensation. hmm... What say you?

 

[oldethennew]

of course we all should know that 'water-baptism' doesn't 'save us', but this is what our
Holy Saviour experienced for us as an example from His Holy Father -
for me and my house, this is something that we both wanted to do after conversion, and we 'did',
in the waters of our Father's ocean...

 

[mailmandan]

It is impossible to baptize a none believer

"None believer" as in an atheist, I would agree. I've never heard of an atheist receiving water baptism, yet there is still a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." Such people may believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ, such as He is the Son of God and His death, burial and resurrection "happened," yet they are still not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and are instead, also trusting in works for salvation.

There have been many people in various false religions and cults who have received water baptism because they have been taught by their church they they must be water baptized to receive salvation, yet they are not authentic believers. I've heard numerous testimonies from people who have received Christ through faith and are receiving water baptism, now as a believer, that admitted to receiving water baptism at their previous church, prior to truly receiving Christ through faith and were not genuine believers when they were previously baptized. I have that same testimony.

 

[notuptome]

That's the way it is when looking in a mirror.

To make sure, allow me to summarize for you;

Repentance, baptism and live a righteous life.

How more simple can one get?

How can a little child comprehend it?

Hear the truth.

Believe the truth.

Receive the truth.

Be saved by grace.

N...

Not biblical...suggest further study of scriptures.

Suggest you take your own advice.

Do not endeavor to add to grace.

For by grace are you saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preston39]

How can a little child comprehend it?....

n....,

Not to worry....Little children are protected until age of accountability.

 

[notuptome]

n....,

Not to worry....Little children are protected until age of accountability.

I have no anxiety. I'm trusting Jesus not water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Donmech]

You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. It was an established fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17 received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and what did Paul say in Acts 16:31? Faith is not baptism and those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, have faith before water baptism. Faith in Christ is established before water baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.

Both Roman Catholics and those who attend the church of Christ try to use this bogus argument in an attempt to try and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law of Moses). Here is the problem with that argument:

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works/works of faith from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works/works of faith) argument is bogus. I once hear someone who attends the church of Christ make this statement - "It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us." Does Jesus really need our help? Is He an ALL-sufficient Savior or an IN-sufficient Savior? Paul made it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) so it is not merely specific works of the law but works in general that do not save. I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved through faith "conjoined with works" and I've heard Roman Catholics say we are saved through faith "infused with works." Both groups are erroneously trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

Funny how some people who attend the church of Christ will use that argument in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" while others will argue that maybe he was already previously baptized. I've heard people in the CoC use the argument that prior to Pentecost, water baptism was not necessary for salvation but after Pentecost it is to get around the thief on the cross, yet they will also say that when John says, "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins," this means that baptism obtains the remission of sins, yet when John spoke these words, this was a different dispensation. hmm... What say you?

This is the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Water baptism was not absolutely necessary for salvation in either Covenant. Galatians 6:2 - Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. This pertains to love for one another and not salvation by water baptism. Also, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws or statutes to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

Just to clerafy, the thieves died under the New Testament dispensation John 10:32 and 33 says that when they came to break Jesus legs to expedite his death he was already dead, both thieves were steal alive.

 

[Donmech]

Just to clerafy, the thieves died under the New Testament dispensation John 10:32 and 33 says that when they came to break Jesus legs to expedite his death he was already dead, both thieves were steal alive.

My mistake regarding the scriptural reference above, I meant to reference ( John 19:32 and 33)

 

[preston39]

I have no anxiety. I'm trusting Jesus not water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

n...,
That is an oxymoron;.....trusting Jesus is to do His will....baptism is part of His command and example.

 

[DJ2]

Paul was very clear in 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Holy Spirit

1. Hughes in his book says that many young people within the church of Christ think their traditional view of the Holy Spirit is "Lashing the Spirit of God to an objective book of paper and ink—or, indeed, circumscribing the Spirit with any kind of rational constraints—ultimately impoverished the soul and drained life of its meaning." Does this charge concern you?

2. Have you arbitrarily put the Holy Spirit in a box by ignoring the work the work that He does: Holy Spirit?

3. Does the Holy Spirit indwell a person (John 14:17; Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 3:16-19; 2 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 4:13-17)?

4. Isn't the Holy Spirit's activity on a person so important that he cannot even receive spiritual reality without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 12:3)? Isn't natural man so at enmity with God that without the Spirit he cannot do God's will (Romans 8:6-7)?

SOME IMPORTANT PASSAGES TO CONSIDER. When we asked former Church of Christ preacher Jerrel Kratt what passages he considers most important in helping people escape from legalism, he suggested these: (1.) Romans 4 and justification by faith for Abraham before he was circumcised. Paul refers to Genesis 15, where Abraham simply accepted the promise of God and hadn't acted on it yet for several years to come. (2.) Law cannot save, it can only condemn. It convicts the conscience. The spirit gives life, the new covenant is not a covenant of death (it doesn't convict sin). See 2 Corinthians 3; Romans 7:1-8:1; Galatians 3:11. Rather, the new covenant is a covenant of life! (3.) We are under grace not law (Romans 6:14). Salvation is by grace through faith, not works that no man boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Bible Questions for the Church of Christ - Faith Facts

Teaching salvation by "water and works" and denying the accompanying work of the Holy Spirit is not following the example of the Bereans.

Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church (and I also temporarily attended the church of Christ) I did not understand either. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. It's not having a haughty spirit to acknowledge that apart from the Holy Spirit, the natural man remains spiritually discerned and cannot understand. It's also not having a haughty spirit to acknowledge that Christ is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. We need to make sure that we are not void of the Spirit of God. I've heard many people who attend various false religions and cults and teach opposing doctrines on how man is saved claim they have received the Holy Spirit. Everyone can't be right. There is only one way.

Your appeals to esoteric knowledge are signs of a punch drunk and cornered individual. You and I have no basis to claim a spiritual advantage. At best we should both allow the word of God to speak through our posts and not claim that God is obviously on our side and against the other. Yet you have chosen to do so. This defense does not prove your superior spirit but instead a haughty one.

You make it a habit to divert by bringing up non-biblical subjects, these discussion always seem to end with you railing against the RCC or CoC, quoting books you read and how spiritual you are being led as opposed to others. I will not get into a "my spirit is better then your spirit" contest. I suggest you listen to your own words:

. I've heard many people who attend various false religions and cults and teach opposing doctrines on how man is saved claim they have received the Holy Spirit. Everyone can't be right. There is only one way.

A common denominator among faith alone regeneration theology followers is esoteric knowledge. You are no different and your words prove it.

 

[preston39]

Your appeals to esoteric knowledge are signs of a punch drunk and cornered individual. You and I have no basis to claim a spiritual advantage. At best we should both allow the word of God to speak through our posts and not claim that God is obviously on our side and against the other. Yet you have chosen to do so. This defense does not prove your superior spirit but instead a haughty one.

You make it a habit to divert by bringing up non-biblical subjects, these discussion always seem to end with you railing against the RCC or CoC, quoting books you read and how spiritual you are being led as opposed to others. I will not get into a "my spirit is better then your spirit" contest. I suggest you listen to your own words:

A common denominator among faith alone regeneration theology followers is esoteric knowledge. You are no different and your words prove it.

Amen to that one.

I couldn't have said it better myself!!!

 

[mailmandan]

Your appeals to esoteric knowledge are signs of a punch drunk and cornered individual. You and I have no basis to claim a spiritual advantage.

The Holy Spirit is the advantage and not our individual, superior spirit accompanied by faulty human logic. I see that you have completely ignored 1 Corinthians 2:11-14. You might as well ignore John 14:26 and 1 John 2:27 as well. It's all about YOU and not the Holy Spirit, which explains why you rely so heavily on faulty human logic and legalism, which results in works salvation.

At best we should both allow the word of God to speak through our posts and not claim that God is obviously on our side and against the other. Yet you have chosen to do so. This defense does not prove your superior spirit but instead a haughty one.

That is a straw man argument. I have allowed the word of God to speak through our posts and have quoted numerous passages of scripture and properly harmonized scripture with scripture to support my arguments, but you just don't have ears to hear and are only interested in accommodating your biased church doctrine. I don't claim a superior spirit and apart from the Holy Spirit, all I have left is the natural man who is spiritually discerned and apart from Christ I can do nothing. That is not a haughty spirit, but a humble spirit. You don't seem to understand the difference.

You make it a habit to divert by bringing up non-biblical subjects, these discussion always seem to end with you railing against the RCC or CoC, quoting books you read and how spiritual you are being led as opposed to others. I will not get into a "my spirit is better then your spirit" contest. I suggest you listen to your own words:

What non-biblical subjects? This is not about my spirit is better than your spirit or a silly game of battle of the intellects. Another straw man argument. These discussions always seem to end with you resorting to straw man arguments and character assassination.

A common denominator among faith alone regeneration theology followers is esoteric knowledge. You are no different and your words prove it.

Those who have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation and have received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8 etc..) understand that it's not all about them. A common denominator among works-salvationists is stirring up controversy in regards to the Holy Spirit's illuminating work in believers and resorting to faulty human logic and legalism and your words prove it.

 

[notuptome]

n...,
That is an oxymoron;.....trusting Jesus is to do His will....baptism is part of His command and example.

It is moronic to attribute to water baptism any merit in salvation. Jesus example was not to cleanse sin but to create a testimony of separation from the filth of this world.

Jesus command was not for water baptism but the baptism of Holy Spirit that only He could administer. John calls it a baptism of fire. Paul declare it to be the quickening from dead in sin to alive unto Christ.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Why do you delay? Today is the day of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preston39]

It is moronic to attribute to water baptism any merit in salvation. Jesus example was not to cleanse sin but to create a testimony of separation from the filth of this world.

Jesus command was not for water baptism but the baptism of Holy Spirit that only He could administer. John calls it a baptism of fire. Paul declare it to be the quickening from dead in sin to alive unto Christ.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Why do you delay? Today is the day of salvation.

For the cause of Christ Roger

Not from G-d's Bible.

I guess some folks just like to be .....wrong......maybe to be different.

Name calling seems to be an art.....which you haven't developed ...yet....you can keep trying though.

 

[Chester]

Your appeals to esoteric knowledge are signs of a punch drunk and cornered individual. You and I have no basis to claim a spiritual advantage. At best we should both allow the word of God to speak through our posts and not claim that God is obviously on our side and against the other. Yet you have chosen to do so. This defense does not prove your superior spirit but instead a haughty one.

You make it a habit to divert by bringing up non-biblical subjects, these discussion always seem to end with you railing against the RCC or CoC, quoting books you read and how spiritual you are being led as opposed to others. I will not get into a "my spirit is better then your spirit" contest. I suggest you listen to your own words:

A common denominator among faith alone regeneration theology followers is esoteric knowledge. You are no different and your words prove it.

DJ2 - What do you mean by calling someone a "punch drunk"? A new term for me?