Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

[Blik]

You confused,

jesus Said two commands fulfill the law, we Call it the law of love, if we are obeying those two commands, by practice you will not break the law,

your trying to follow a law that condemns you Where you are, it can not do what you want it to do because it was not made for that purpose

There is no law, absolutely none, that if properly understood is not a law of love. If you obey any of the ten commandments without love, you are not obeying it at all.

If you will read the gospels and follow what Christ said about the law instead of wildly accusing you will find that this is so. There are examples, especially about the Sabbath, that explain how following the rules without love is not following the rules at all.

 

[Blik]

The lord also chastens

one aspect of love we find in 1 corinthians is that love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, the church of Corinth had joy and were proud because a member slept with his fathers wife, in lack of love, they did not discipline that man.

We are also not to judge each other, for judgment of people is only to be done by the Lord. We are to judge if something follows scripture or not, we are to be against evil, but when we judge others we are not with the lord.

There are prescribed way of handling sinners in the church. That way is done with love, any other way is wrong. And for Christians to quarrel with false accusations is especially wrong.

 

[Ogom]

Have we come to Christ? ...

if you have not come to Christ, you better heed the law. because if you do not come to Christ before you die, you will suffer the curse of the law. Which is eternal death

until we do keep them all, we are not fully alive.


“For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live” (Romans 8:13)

we have many choices in life every day. what choices are we making minute by minute and hour by hour. choices for life, or for death?

 

[Blik]

until we do keep them all, we are not fully alive.


“For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live” (Romans 8:13)

we have many choices in life every day. what choices are we making minute by minute and hour by hour. choices for life, or for death?

Our choice of life or death is making a choice to accept the offer of life that Christ gives us. Adam and Eve chose death for us, it is only through Christ that we can have life.

 

[Ogom]

Our choice of life or death is making a choice to accept the offer of life that Christ gives us. Adam and Eve chose death for us, it is only through Christ that we can have life.

New Living Translation
So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God.

English Standard Version
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Berean Study Bible
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God,

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore, having left the beginning teaching of the Christ, we should go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and faith in God,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

New King James Version
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

King James Bible
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, let us leave the elementary teaching about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

Contemporary English Version
We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

Good News Translation
Let us go forward, then, to mature teaching and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. We should not lay again the foundation of turning away from useless works and believing in God;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

 

[JaumeJ]

New Living Translation
So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God.

English Standard Version
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Berean Study Bible
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God,

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore, having left the beginning teaching of the Christ, we should go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and faith in God,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

New King James Version
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

King James Bible
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, let us leave the elementary teaching about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

Contemporary English Version
We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

Good News Translation
Let us go forward, then, to mature teaching and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. We should not lay again the foundation of turning away from useless works and believing in God;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

Is this how we turn to the Father like little children? Jesus-Yeshua teaches us we must be as they.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

until we do keep them all, we are not fully alive.

if it were possible for you to keep them all, you would have a chance to be saved by works. Although even then you would be “cursed by the law” because you have broken at least one. So not even that is possible

“For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live” (Romans 8:13)

we have many choices in life every day. what choices are we making minute by minute and hour by hour. choices for life, or for death?

i agree

but we do not do this by attempting to keep the law. We do this by becoming christ like, learning the love of God and receiving it so we can in turn love others, we put to death the deeds of the body by learning to love others in all area. And putting their needs above our own, something the law is incapable of teaching

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no law, absolutely none, that if properly understood is not a law of love. If you obey any of the ten commandments without love, you are not obeying it at all.

If you will read the gospels and follow what Christ said about the law instead of wildly accusing you will find that this is so. There are examples, especially about the Sabbath, that explain how following the rules without love is not following the rules at all.

Lol

I am sorry

but you have it backwards

we love first, be taking Gods love and using that to love others (not that we love but that God first loved us) and in doing that, by practice, we do not break the commands

you don’t try to obey out of your own power and hope it is in love, no ona has obeyed them, that’s why they are called the ministers of death written in stone

once again, the law your trying to follow condemns you where you are

one day I pray you hear those words

 

[Blik]

Lol

I am sorry

but you have it backwards

we love first, be taking Gods love and using that to love others (not that we love but that God first loved us) and in doing that, by practice, we do not break the commands

you don’t try to obey out of your own power and hope it is in love, no ona has obeyed them, that’s why they are called the ministers of death written in stone

once again, the law your trying to follow condemns you where you are

one day I pray you hear those words

You give many rules about what is required of us, what comes first the chicken on the egg type of decisions that you say must be made. The facts are simple, rules be hanged. Christ saves, no rules and regulations about it.

 

[Blik]

New Living Translation
So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God.

English Standard Version
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Berean Study Bible
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God,

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore, having left the beginning teaching of the Christ, we should go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and faith in God,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

New King James Version
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

King James Bible
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, let us leave the elementary teaching about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

Contemporary English Version
We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

Good News Translation
Let us go forward, then, to mature teaching and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. We should not lay again the foundation of turning away from useless works and believing in God;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

I like this thought. We are all Christians who know and use the fundamentals, so lets get on with living our life as a Christian and discussing the meat of this.

Maturity is living our life as an expression of the most important commandment, to love the Lord with everything in us and others as ourselves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You give many rules about what is required of us, what comes first the chicken on the egg type of decisions that you say must be made. The facts are simple, rules be hanged. Christ saves, no rules and regulations about it.

I am not doing anything I am just giving you the facts of the word, and trying to get you to put the law where it belongs

 

[Blik]

I am not doing anything I am just giving you the facts of the word, and trying to get you to put the law where it belongs

The fact of the law is complicated. The law tells us what is sin. The law points us to Christ. The law guides us, as in the 119th Psalm. That Psalm is scripture written by prophets guided by the holy spirit. The law tells us how to live our life with the spirit of the Lord in us. The law is from God. The law written in stone is of no use unless we understand the law of love must be within each commandment. The law tells us what Christ will forgive us for.

It is wrong to be against all law because Christ wipes us clean of sin and through Him we are made righteous. A righteous person who is free of sin through Christ does not want to be an unrighteous person who lives in the darkness he has escaped from through Christ. To say that person should want sin in his life after salvation is a wrong statement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The fact of the law is complicated. The law tells us what is sin. The law points us to Christ. The law guides us, as in the 119th Psalm. That Psalm is scripture written by prophets guided by the holy spirit. The law tells us how to live our life with the spirit of the Lord in us. The law is from God. The law written in stone is of no use unless we understand the law of love must be within each commandment. The law tells us what Christ will forgive us for.

It is wrong to be against all law because Christ wipes us clean of sin and through Him we are made righteous. A righteous person who is free of sin through Christ does not want to be an unrighteous person who lives in the darkness he has escaped from through Christ. To say that person should want sin in his life after salvation is a wrong statement.

Your against the law. You do not understand it, and you fail to listen to it

your not going to learn to be free from sin by the law, that was not its purpose

your refusal to see this basic fact is mind boggling to anyone who truly understand the law

one day I pray you will listen to someone who will help you understand how we gain true victory over sin, until then, I guess you will remain in blindness,

 

[Blik]

Your against the law. You do not understand it, and you fail to listen to it

your not going to learn to be free from sin by the law, that was not its purpose

your refusal to see this basic fact is mind boggling to anyone who truly understand the law

one day I pray you will listen to someone who will help you understand how we gain true victory over sin, until then, I guess you will remain in blindness,

What common sense or report of God's ways is "being free from sin by the law"? Freedom from sin is only through Christ.

And accusing me over and over: blind, refusing, so dumb I don't understand, won't listen. We are not to call other Christians fools, you surpass scripture.

Are you preaching that a saved person should be disobedient? You keep hammering away at law.

 

[Budman]

Wait, a baby directly from the womb can speak to lie?? The writer is using exaggeration to make a point about the wicked. It's as if someone were to say about you, "Budman was preaching from the womb!"

A sin is an act of transgressing the law of The Almighty. A newborn baby can't act for themselves in any capacity.

This psalm is making a comparison between the righteous and the wicked. This is how the chapter ends:

If the baby wasn't born with a sinful nature, it wouldn't be subject to death. Death is the judgement for sin. But babies do die, don't they? And a child does not have to be taught to lie, or to steal. They do it naturally - due to the sinful nature.

We have a mortal nature that compels us to sin, because of death. The law had to be given first to show HOW a person is sinful. The Messiah was given second for salvation from those sins...and then we are told to "fly right" (i.e. obey). If the law wasn't necessary in this process, then repentance wouldn't be necessary either...we wouldn't even need to know about The Messiah or need to believe in Him. He could just do the work and we keep on living however we want.

Do you even know what repentance is? If it means to turn from sin and "fly right" then none of us can be saved. Nobody has turned from sin. We continue to do it, and will continue until the day we die. And all of your objections and proclamations won't change that simple fact.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

TALK ABOUT "MIXING" STUFF.....THIS ENTIRE OP IS LIKE MIXING HORSE MANURE WITH BANNA PUDDING......IM NOT EATING IT!!!!!!!!

NO WONDER YOU CANT TELL THE CHURCH FROM THE WORLD ANYMORE......THIS BUNCH OF SIN LOVERS THAT WANT THE WORLD BUT ALSO A LITTLE FIRE INSURANCE WHEN THEY DIE

The reality is, there are Carnal Christians out there that do love the world. And why? because they walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit. Just because someone is dealing with carnality and struggles with sin, that does not mean they are lost. If they have believed the Gospel of Christ, then they are saved. Now after salvation, the thing they must work on is their growth and spiritual development. we all start out as Carnal Christians. Growth takes time.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

EZEKIEL 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. [ GOD does not change ]And has no respect of persons

That passage which you are referencing in Ezekiel, is talking about physical death, not spiritual death sir.

James5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. [ this tells us if we see A brother [in CHRIST ] err, [means sin ] an And we warn him, that CHRISTIANS are NOT TO SIN, and he repents and don't sin, then he is saved from death, [ but if he don't repent, this is what will happen to him.

If the Christian repents and turns from his sin and wicked way, yes he will live and not die physically. Again, the death being spoken of here is PHYSICAL Death. Not spiritual death. No Christian ever has to fear the second death (which is the Lake of Fire) since they have already been saved and delivered from the Second Death.

In other words, while a Christian can lose many things for living in sin and carnality, such as his joy, peace, assurance, power, testimony, and even his physical life. However though, he can Never lose his salvation since his eternal salvation is a free gift from God.

HEBREWS 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. the consuming fire of GOD, will devour him,

That passage of Scripture from Hebrews 10:26-27 is one which is wrested a lot by those who believe it is possible to lose salvation. And this is a sad reality. Understanding the context of Hebrews 10 will help one to understand what Paul is saying in Hebrews 10:26-27, and the theme of Hebrews 10 is showing the contrast between the Old Testament animal sacrifices VS the Ultimate, and PERFECT Sacrifice of Jesus Christ (The Lamb Of God).


The Old Testament sacrifices could not take away sins, for it was not possible for those sacrifices to do that. This is why those sacrifices had to be repeated as a continual offering over and over, and plus those animal sacrifices could not make the comers thereunto perfect. However though, Christ’s sacrifice of Himself on the cross of Calvary does make the comer thereunto Perfect and Christ’s sacrifice does take away sin, and Christ’s sacrifice was and is ONCE FOR ALL. Never to be repeated again.

When studying the context of this chapter it also talks about how God shall judge HIS PEOPLE. Remember that. We are talking about the judgment of saved people that are God’s. And the Lord judges His people by chastening them. But He will not take away their salvation.


Truth be told, we ALL have sinned willfully after our salvation. Every last one of us. And so, the willful sin here must be a particular sin which the Author had in mind as he was writing Hebrews.

Hence, in conclusion, what Paul is giving here is a warning, mainly to the Hebrew Christians who were getting close to abandoning their confession of faith in Christ and were about to return back unto the Mosaic Law and its sacrifices, and Judaism. This is why Paul emphasized how those OT Sacrifices were inadequate just a few chapters earlier. Remember, CONTEXT is King, when it comes to understanding Holy Scripture. Especially hard passages of Scripture. In order to rightly divide more difficult Scriptures, you must take into account the context in which you are reading the scriptures. Scripture always interprets Scripture. Therefore the particular willful sin being spoken of here in Hebrews 11:25-26 is willful and deliberate abandonment of their confession of faith in Christ and their confession of the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, and then to return back unto the Jewish Sacrifices which were under the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law).

 

[JohnRH]

In the case of 2 Corinthians 13:5, I believe that taking a careful look at what the verse itself says (particularly the second half) is enough to conclude what the meaning is, though the surrounding context is helpful as well. I also believe that the KJV translation makes the meaning clearer, so here is v5 again in that translation.

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, ~except ye be reprobates?~​

​

​

I take the 3 occurrences of "retrobate" to be an 'aside' to what Paul is focusing on. (Paul assumes they're saved and have the necessary resource (Jesus Christ in you) to receive "Christ speaking in him", but won't "pronounce" them saved.)

A paraphrase might be: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the [faith-mode] (as opposed to a carnal mode); prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you [of course you do], unless, of course, you are reprobates?

The context (which includes the first 10 verses of Chapter 13) is one of Paul defending his Apostleship to some troublemakers in the church at Corinth (to those who were questioning whether it .. and he .. were the real McCoy/the genuine article .. or not). Paul, as their undoubted father in the faith, tells them to examine and test themselves to see if they are "in the faith" (which in this case seems to clearly mean "in Christ"), and that if they discover that they are genuinely saved, then ~they themselves~ are the Apostle's testimony and evidence that both he and his apostleship are, indeed, the genuine article (because the WONDERFUL/WONDROUS transformation that took place in the lives of so many of the Corinthians could scarcely have come through a false teacher. ~MacDonald, W. Believer’s Bible Commentary).

This would assure the Corinthians that Paul is the "genuine article", but the commentary says nothing about how an individual's self-examination would assure him that he himself is saved.

And just FYI, MacDonald agrees with you (and so do I) that the Scriptures are our principle source of assurance, at least in the sense of 'first and foremost', but he (like every other theologian) goes on to say that our assurance is also tied in with the things that accompany our salvation .. Hebrews 6:9, with the "fruit" that results from God's mighty work in us to change us, regenerate and save us, and make us His workmanship, as wholly new creatures in Christ. MacDonald also says that such evidence/"fruit" in the lives of true believers is something that becomes more and more apparent in a maturing believer (which is why he points to the Scriptures as that which is first and foremost among the things that give us assurance that we are truly saved).

This deals with how others are assured of an individual's salvation, but not how the individual is assured of his own salvation. Those 2 issues are as different as night & day,



Examine yourselves, whether ye be [saved]. How does that work? How do you determine whether you're saved, via self-examination?

 

[Deuteronomy]

This deals with how others are assured of an individual's salvation, but not how the individual is assured of his own salvation. Those 2 issues are as different as night & day

Hello again John, it's clear that we are to watch out for one another, but where does the Bible command us to be assured of "someone else's" salvation

Examine yourselves, whether ye be [saved]. How does that work? How do you determine whether you're saved, via self-examination?

The first question that I typically ask someone who is lacking (to one degree or another) the assurance of their salvation is this, "is the way that you live your life now different in anyway from the way that you lived your life before you were saved?".

In fact, I will ask you a similar question right now, is there anything that you can you point to in your life (how you act, what you say, how you think/what you think about, your interests, etc.) that is consistently and discernably different now, as a Christian, particularly when compared to how you lived your life before coming to Christ

Also, does the life that you lead now (as a Christian) appear to be a life that is, at least generally/mostly, lead by the Spirit and focused on Him .. e.g. Galatians 5:22-23, or are you still walking in the flesh/according to the desires of the flesh (with all of its lusts and self focus) like non-Christians typically do .. e.g. Galatians 5:19-21

When you sin, are you grieved/sorrowful because of your sin, and do you immediately seek the Lord's forgiveness when you do, even for the smallest of your foibles/peccadilloes

There is much more, of course, but I will stop here

Thanks!

~Deut

Matthew 7​

18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.​

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.​

20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.​

​

 

[Blik]

That passage which you are referencing in Ezekiel, is talking about physical death, not spiritual death sir.
.

The Lord is spirit. Scripture, especially the old testament, uses the physical facts to explain the spiritual. It is called symbolism. The Lord is interested in our physical life, the Lord gives us joy, peace, abundance. We are to listen to the Lord as he speaks to our physical self, but how we live physically reflects the spirit and the Lord never, ever, speaks to only one aspect of our life. There is both physical and spiritual meaning in scripture at the same time.

One great example is when the Sabbath was blessed for us. We are to rest, rest in Christ who forgives our sins and rest in our bodies that should be tired from six days labor.