Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

[John146]

Not so. Even the apostle John says exactly what James says, and in fact makes good works the evidence of salvation: But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? ... Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.( 1 John 3:17; 4:7,8)

(1) Ourselves, (2) God and Christ, (3) Christian brothers and sisters, and (4) the unbelieving world.

There are many lost people that do more good works than Christians...but are they true Christians if they’re not doing good works? Hmmmmmmm.

What if the only good works I do is never seen by anyone? People may doubt my salvation. I’d better make sure people see and know the good things I’ve done.

All I need is scripture to prove my salvation. What saith the scriptures concerning the one who believes the gospel of grace...no works attached.

 

[wattie]

Do you not believe YESUAH when he says that he that ENDURETH UNTIL THE END, OR did JESUS LIE ???

Context for that verse?

I think you'll find its deliverance from trials and tribulations rather than about eternal salvation

 

[bud62]

Context for that verse?

I think you'll find its deliverance from trials and tribulations rather than about eternal salvation

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Guojing]

Not so. Even the apostle John says exactly what James says, and in fact makes good works the evidence of salvation: But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? ... Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.( 1 John 3:17; 4:7,8)

(1) Ourselves, (2) God and Christ, (3) Christian brothers and sisters, and (4) the unbelieving world.

No surprise that John is saying the same as James

They are both writing to the circumcision, who were expecting the tribulation to begin any time
(Galatians 2:9)

 

[Deuteronomy]

The problem with " grieving over sin " as an indicator is that people question " am i grieving enough?".

Hello throughfaith, as I was saying to ChosenbyHim (in the post that you are replying to .. post #6), there are many different bits of evidence that we piece together from our lives to prove that we are who we claim to be (true believers), and our grieving over/being horrified by our sins, while certainly significant, is just ~part~ of that evidence.

Also, if a person sins and then wonders whether or not they are "grieving enough", chances are good that they are NOT grieving over their sins as true Christians do, IOW, with regard to God, but are instead self-focused and worried about how the repercussions of their sinful actions may end up affecting them, either in this life (in regard to what they want) and/or in the age to come. So, if a person who claims to be a Christian is concerned with themselves when they sin, rather than God (and others), this is a good indicator that they may have "failed the test" .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, that they are NOT true believers.

Of course, this is why we do not look at just one of the indicators for saving faith as we seek to obey verses like 2 Corinthians 13:5 (commands that we are to examine ourselves and to prove thereby who we truly are, true Christians or CINO*), but at many/all of the things that regularly accompany salvation together as our proof (for instance, do our lives, as Christians, regularly demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit .. e.g. Galatians 5:22-23, or are they still characterized by a brutish love of self, love of sin, and love of this world .. Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 2:15-16)

You continue.

Atheists, Jehovah witnesses , Mormons, Catholics have committed suicide over " grieving over their sin"

True Christians (assuming, of course, that we are mentally reasonable/rational when we sin) desire nothing more than to be forgiven of our sins and to have our full fellowship with Him/the "joy of our salvation" (as King David put it) restored, as well to begin to do the things again which please, honor and glorify Him. So, while some atheists, JW's, LDS and CINO* Roman Catholics may commit the ~additional~ sin of suicide (if the weight of their guilt over a massive wrong-doing becomes too much for them to bear), that is hardly the typical response of a true believer over their sin. So, committing suicide because of one's guilt over their sin would be another indicator that someone has failed the test (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Quite frankly, if someone who claims to be a Christian has no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness (from their sin and from the power that sin has over them in this life), but instead seeks forgiveness for their sins as a means of escaping the fires of Hell alone, THAT is a primary indicator that such a person is not saved (because a person like that is self-focused/self-interested). So, while such a person no doubt has a GREAT interest in the blessings that God has to offer them, they show themselves to be CINO*, because they show that they have no interest in (nor love for) the Blesser Himself.

~Deut

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

*CINO = Christians In Name Only

 

[wattie]

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[/QUOT

Yeah.. That's not eternal deliverance but deliverance from troubles

 

[bud62]

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Tell me your thoughts again on this, we have talked about it befo

re
resend it to me will look and we can talk on it, GOD willing

You sent November 27 at 9:26 PM

Tell me your thoughts again on this, we have talked about it befo

re

1




You sent November 27 at 9:27 PM
Prey and think and let me know???

 

[AlmondJoy]

View attachment 223078



Back-loading Works into the Gospel:​

Front-Loading works into the Gospel would like something this:

“For you to be saved you have to be willing to give up your life first”

“You need to stop sinning and live holy, or else you cannot be saved”

“In order for you to be saved, you need to be baptized in water, keep the sacraments, do penance, and join our church to be saved.”

The first two statements are made by a lot of preachers in Christendom, where as the last one is an actual requirement of Roman Catholicism. And obviously Roman Catholicism is not Christianity. Roman Catholicism is a false religion. But works based plans of salvation are not just presented in the cults and false religions out there, but are also preached within different sects and denominations within Christendom and what can be referred to as mainline Protestantism.

And usually this happens when Salvation and Discipleship are Combined together. For example, When a preacher says to a sinner:

“Before you can be saved, you have to be willing to follow Christ Jesus for the rest of your life.”

What that preacher just did is combine Salvation with Discipleship. And the two are different. Salvation is not discipleship. And Discipleship is not Salvation. Salvation is a one time event, where as Discipleship is a life long process.

Another example of combining Salvation and Discipleship together would be a preacher saying something like this:

“If you want to be saved, you have to be willing to forsake all, give up your life, even hate your own life and be willing to deny yourself and follow Christ. In order for you to be truly saved, you must do these things.”


This again is a prime example of mixing Salvation with Discipleship. Hence, what you have here is works based salvation. Where one is Front-Loading works into the Gospel. But Salvation is not of works, but it is only by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of Works, Lest any man should Boast. (Eph. 2:8-9).

Now those examples I just gave you deal with someone who, once again, is front-loading works into the Gospel. But what does it look like when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel?

Front-loading works into the Gospel is actually rather obvious. Since they are actually telling you up front that you must do those works in order to be saved. But when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel, it isn’t that clear, since it is more subtil. But here are a few examples of back-loading works into the Gospel:

“Well, while we are saved by grace through Faith without works. Still though, true saving faith Will produce good works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, BUT true saving grace will change you, and you will bring forth fruit and good works, if you have been truly saved.”

“We are not preaching works based salvation, BUT we are preaching Salvation-Works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith that Works.”

“We are not saved by works, BUT true salvation and true faith will have works.”

“We are saved by grace through Faith, BUT true saving faith will have the good works. Good works will accompany saving faith.”

Now those are some examples of a person who is back-loading works into the Gospel.

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.
Well, again, all Christians should do good works and continue in good works. But our works do not prove we are saved. For there are a lot of religious people out there who do good works, and yet they are lost. Catholics out there do good works (A lot of them stand up for the unborn outside of abortion mills), yet they are still lost. Mormons do good works, and a lot of them may live moral lives, yet they are still lost. False Jehovah’s witnesses, a lot of them do good works, and their women even dress very modestly, Yet though they are also Lost and unconverted. For they are not trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation, but our trusting in their works to save them. And the Mormons and False Jehovah’s witnesses both reject the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

How a Christian can know they are saved is by the Holy Spirit within him bearing witness with his spirit that he is a child of God (Rom. 8:16), and also by simply believing the testimony and written record of the Holy Scripture (1 John 5:10-13).
We are not saved by our works, nor are we kept by our works. We are saved by Grace through Faith and that’s it. We are Saved by Grace through Faith alone in Christ Alone. Period.

No “Buts” and No “Ifs”

Salvation is entirely by grace through Faith. Plus Nothing and Minus Nothing.
Once again, every born again child of God Should do good works, and should bear fruit and we all should live a changed life. We all should get sin out of our lives, and walk in obedience unto God. And yet though, all these good things and good works which every child of God should be doing, is not what saves us, nor does it keep us saved. We ought to do good works and bring forth fruit unto God because we love God and because we are thankful and appreciate the great salvation which He hath given unto us.

Furthermore, if a man or woman repents toward God and places their faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone to save them, then they are saved.
Whether that saved person does good works or not, whether that saved person serves God or not, whether that saved person grows in their faith or not, that person will be in Heaven when they die. Since their salvation is not based upon their service, performance, or their good works. But rather, their salvation is based solely upon Christ Jesus and Him alone. Jesus Christ did all the necessary work for our salvation to be complete. Jesus Christ’s blood atonement and finished work at Calvary is the only thing that can save us and get us to heaven.

The good works which we do, loving one another, serving in a local church, preaching the Gospel and doing evangelism, our separation from the world, the Holy Living and walk of obedience that we do will earn us rewards, crowns, millennial inheritance and the privilege to rule and reign with Christ during His earthly Reign in His Messianic Kingdom.

When a person gets saved, even though they should grow in grace, and although they should do good works and should live holy and soberly. However though, there is no guarantee that that saved person will live holy, since Christian growth is not automatic. That saved person may not do any good works, and he may not grow at all. That person may just remain carnal and a spiritual babe, sadly.

For Christian service, growing in grace, living holy, bearing good fruit, all these things deal with sanctification and the Christian life and walk, and all these good things are volitional. They are not automatic. Whether a Christian does these good works and lives holy, is up to him. He has to make that choice.

Therefore to conclude, We should serve God and live for Him with the right motive. In other words, we should serve our Lord Jesus Christ because we love Him, and want to glorify Him and His holy word. Hence, we should do all these good works for the very reason I just mentioned.

Nevertheless though, we are not saved by good works, Christian service, discipleship, denying ourselves, or any other good work. We are saved only by God’s grace. And it is God’s grace which saved us, and it is also God’s grace that keeps us saved.

TALK ABOUT "MIXING" STUFF.....THIS ENTIRE OP IS LIKE MIXING HORSE MANURE WITH BANNA PUDDING......IM NOT EATING IT!!!!!!!!

NO WONDER YOU CANT TELL THE CHURCH FROM THE WORLD ANYMORE......THIS BUNCH OF SIN LOVERS THAT WANT THE WORLD BUT ALSO A LITTLE FIRE INSURANCE WHEN THEY DIE

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Under Israel's gospel of the kingdom, rewards are intricately linked to salvation, to be saved from hell, you need to do good works together with believing, and you will receive both salvation and rewards, as Jesus explained in the parable of the sheep and the goats.

Under the gospel of grace given to Paul for us in the body of Christ, salvation is a free gift, that is by belief apart from works. (Romans 4:5). But rewards are still based on good works (1 Cor 3). So in this case, salvation is separated from rewards.

So yes, under that gospel, we would probably see many Christians in the bema seat of Christ only with salvation but very little rewards, which will certainly be an embarassment. (1 Cor 3:15)

 

[Duskey]

Prey and think and let me know

😗😗😗😗😗😗😗😗😗😗

 

[TMS]

If i truely believe something my actions will correspond. If i love in my heart my outward actions will be loving. If i truely believed that i am going to be a king with Jesus, and i'm asked to be renewed by the Spirit, my actions would reveal that.
You can't separate Faith and Works. They are like paddles on a boat. All faith and no works = going around in circles, or all works with no faith = going around in circles.
Sure it is faith that saves us. but true faith results in works.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

[bud62]

Under Israel's gospel of the kingdom, rewards are intricately linked to salvation, to be saved from hell, you need to do good works together with believing, and you will receive both salvation and rewards, as Jesus explained in the parable of the sheep and the goats.

Under the gospel of grace given to Paul for us in the body of Christ, salvation is a free gift, that is by belief apart from works. (Romans 4:5). But rewards are still based on good works (1 Cor 3). So in this case, salvation is separated from rewards.

So yes, under that gospel, we would probably see many Christians in the bema seat of Christ only with salvation but very little rewards, which will certainly be an embarassment. (1 Cor 3:15)

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. If GOD saved one different than another THEN THAT would be RESPECT OF PERSONS, AND that is CALLED SIN IN the BIBLE, And GOD don't lie or SIN.
Abraham was saved by Faith, just like us, But if he had not done what GOD told HIM TO, then he wouldn't have been SAVED, GOD is not talking about JUST believing, GOD IS TALKING ABOUT A FAITH THAT WORKS, FATH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD,

 

[Guojing]

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. If GOD saved one different than another THEN THAT would be RESPECT OF PERSONS, AND that is CALLED SIN IN the BIBLE, And GOD don't lie or SIN.
Abraham was saved by Faith, just like us, But if he had not done what GOD told HIM TO, then he wouldn't have been SAVED, GOD is not talking about JUST believing, GOD IS TALKING ABOUT A FAITH THAT WORKS, FATH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD,

Yes, James was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, he was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.

He was not chosen by Christ to be the apostle to the Gentiles, and not given the revelation of the mystery that was given to Paul (Ephesians 3)

 

[bud62]

Yes, James was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, he was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.

He was not chosen by Christ to be the apostle to the Gentiles, and not given the revelation of the mystery that was given to Paul (Ephesians 3)

There is JUST 1 GOSPLE AND 1 FAITH. Why do you think that Paul when to meat with the church in Jerusalem, BECAUSE there is just one true GOSPEL, JAMES PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL AS Paul

 

[TMS]

Yes, James was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, he was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.

He was not chosen by Christ to be the apostle to the Gentiles, and not given the revelation of the mystery that was given to Paul (Ephesians 3)

Are you saying the book of James does not apply to us?
The bible is inspired, or it is useless today. You can choose to believe all of the bible, or just the parts that are suiting your belief.
James is for today just like Matthew and Genesis.

 

[Guojing]

There is JUST 1 GOSPLE AND 1 FAITH. Why do you think that Paul when to meat with the church in Jerusalem, BECAUSE there is just one true GOSPEL, JAMES PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL AS Paul

If everyone was always preaching the same gospel, then the Jerusalem Council event at Acts 15 and Galatians 2 would be totally unnecessary.

 

[Guojing]

Are you saying the book of James does not apply to us?
The bible is inspired, or it is useless today. You can choose to believe all of the bible, or just the parts that are suiting your belief.
James is for today just like Matthew and Genesis.

All scripture is for our learning, but in terms of to and about us, we are instructed to rightly divide the word of truth.

James contains the word of truth to Israel during the Tribulation.

Romans to Philemon contains truth to the Body of Christ.

 

[TMS]

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

we will have times of tribulation and sometimes the relevance is not as strong but the Holy Spirit can teach us lessons from all scripture.
If James was specking to Jews we are now the spiritual Jews.

 

[Guojing]

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

we will have times of tribulation and sometimes the relevance is not as strong but the Holy Spirit can teach us lessons from all scripture.
If James was specking to Jews we are now the spiritual Jews.

The Body of Christ is not Israel, natural or spiritual.

But yes, I agree that all scripture is useful. I would be careful, as Paul warned us in the Body of Christ in 1 Cor 3:10-15, to build according to the foundation he laid for us as Christ instructed him to lay.

That means, on the foundation of Romans to Philemon, and not Israel's program.

For example, I no longer teach that signs and wonders are still for us in the Body of Christ today, nor do I teach water baptism.

 

[throughfaith]

Hello throughfaith, as I was saying to ChosenbyHim (in the post that you are replying to .. post #6), there are many different bits of evidence that we piece together from our lives to prove that we are who we claim to be (true believers), and our grieving over/being horrified by our sins, while certainly significant, is just ~part~ of that evidence.

Also, if a person sins and then wonders whether or not they are "grieving enough", chances are good that they are NOT grieving over their sins as true Christians do, IOW, with regard to God, but are instead self-focused and worried about how the repercussions of their sinful actions may end up affecting them, either in this life (in regard to what they want) and/or in the age to come. So, if a person who claims to be a Christian is concerned with themselves when they sin, rather than God (and others), this is a good indicator that they may have "failed the test" .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, that they are NOT true believers.

Of course, this is why we do not look at just one of the indicators for saving faith as we seek to obey verses like 2 Corinthians 13:5 (commands that we are to examine ourselves and to prove thereby who we truly are, true Christians or CINO*), but at many/all of the things that regularly accompany salvation together as our proof (for instance, do our lives, as Christians, regularly demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit .. e.g. Galatians 5:22-23, or are they still characterized by a brutish love of self, love of sin, and love of this world .. Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 2:15-16)

You continue.


True Christians (assuming, of course, that we are mentally reasonable/rational when we sin) desire nothing more than to be forgiven of our sins and to have our full fellowship with Him/the "joy of our salvation" (as King David put it) restored, as well to begin to do the things again which please, honor and glorify Him. So, while some atheists, JW's, LDS and CINO* Roman Catholics may commit the ~additional~ sin of suicide (if the weight of their guilt over a massive wrong-doing becomes too much for them to bear), that is hardly the typical response of a true believer over their sin. So, committing suicide because of one's guilt over their sin would be another indicator that someone has failed the test (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Quite frankly, if someone who claims to be a Christian has no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness (from their sin and from the power that sin has over them in this life), but instead seeks forgiveness for their sins as a means of escaping the fires of Hell alone, THAT is a primary indicator that such a person is not saved (because a person like that is self-focused/self-interested). So, while such a person no doubt has a GREAT interest in the blessings that God has to offer them, they show themselves to be CINO*, because they show that they have no interest in (nor love for) the Blesser Himself.

~Deut

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

*CINO = Christians In Name Only

Which verse or verses are you thinking when you say " grieving over sins " in the epistles of Paul? I'm not saying its wrong ,of course its frowned on even unbelievers see this .