Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?
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Amen!You forgot "past-trib."
As Soon As The Body Of Christ Departs in pre- [TOJT] trib Great GRACE Departure,
then all our infirmities, persecutions, distresses, trials, troubles, and tribulations
Will All Be "past-trib" ♫
↑
Amen!
As Soon As The Body Of Christ Departs in pre- [TOJT] trib Great GRACE Departure,
then all our infirmities, persecutions, distresses, trials, troubles, and tribulations
Will All Be "past-trib" ♫
Regarding the 144,000:
Many tribes were lost when Israel was defeated and taken into captivity, leaving the nation of Judah alone. How can 12,000 from each tribe be taken by Herod when they were no longer among the Jewish nation and no longer known to be Jewish?
Many tribes were lost when Israel was defeated and taken into captivity, leaving the nation of Judah alone. How can 12,000 from each tribe be taken by Herod when they were no longer among the Jewish nation and no longer known to be Jewish?
I’m post-trib.
Hi gif, Haven't heard from too many with your view. Question, if the rapture is post-Trib, when does the Wedding Super of the Lamb take place where the Believer marry Jesus in heaven before we return with Him in the 2nd coming. Also, when does the Bema Seat Judgment in Heaven take place? My understanding is that these events happen after the rapture and before we return at the 2nd coming with Jesus. Not much time to do this if the rapture happens at the end of God's Wrath and before we return with Jesus.
I'm also post trib. How can the wedding supper take place when some of God's people, His church who is the bride, are still on earth suffering ("tribulation saints" as pre and mid trib like to designate them) if the rapture is pre or mid trib? No, the wedding feast won't happen until ALL of the Lord's people are collected so that ALL of us can enjoy the feast.
The wedding feast is mentioned in Revelation 19, and it sounds like it happens at the end of the great tribulation after we're raptured but before Jesus destroys the antichrist and the rest of our enemies.
Outline of Revelation 19:
Verses 1-5: God's judgement on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth.
Verses 6-10: Marriage supper of the Lamb.
Verses 11-21: Jesus as the Rider on the White Horse throws the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and slays the rest of His enemies.
Hi, Lori.
This is what selahsays: There is no rapture before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. …. And this happens at the 7th trump, which is after Satan has comes at the 6th trump, claiming to be God. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
~~~~~~~~~~
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?" And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will deceive many. "But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows. "But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. "And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. "But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! "And pray that your flight may not be in winter. "For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. "But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand. "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; "the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
- Mark 13:3-26
Consider:
--"the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES" takes place upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and IS "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age" (or at least, its inauguration);
--so, yes, ALL "saints" will BE PRESENT to enjoy it (some as "the Bride/Wife [singular]" [RETURNing "WITH Jesus" at that point];... some as "the guests [plural]"--'having been INVITED'--all throughout the Trib yrs; and the "5 [wise] virgins [plural; aka what we call 'bridesmaids'];" etc--who never "lift off" the earth);
Rev19:9 mentions only that the "HAVING BEEN INVITED [PERFECT participle]" is completed at that point in the chronology (when Jesus is getting ready to head DOWN to there), not that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" itself has been completed or already will have taken place, at that point.
Again, "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" IS the earthly MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (or, at least is its inauguration... but on the earth). This is how ALL "saints" of ALL time periods will be present and accounted for (so to speak) to enjoy it!
It is DISTINCT from "the MARRIAGE" itself, which pertains SOLELY TO "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" Rev19:7... (presently "betrothed" 2Cor11:2)... which "marriage" itself will have already taken place (up there) by that point in the chronology.
How can the marriage take place when not all the members of the Church which is the Lord's bride (singular) are there to participate in the wedding? Your tribulation saints are still suffering on earth remember?
A marriage vows are a contract - all pertaining members have to be present to make the agreement. Otherwise it's not binding.
"The Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" (v.7; UP THERE WITH HIM) is NOT the INVITED "guests [PLURAL]" ("having been INVITED [perfect participle]" v.9, all throughout the Trib yrs on the earth);
"The Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" is the ONLY ONE to/for/about whom "THE MARRIAGE" itself pertains (and it will have already taken place by the point in time when Jesus is RETURNING to the earth Rev19 [FOR "the EARTHLY MK age" aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the MEAL [G347; Mt8:11 and parallel; and Lk12:36-37,38,40, etc and its parallel]).
"the MARRIAGE" itself (re: "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" v.7) is DISTINCT FROM "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" [/earthly MK age], v.9 (pertaining to the "INVITED GUESTS [PLURAL]" as well as the "FIVE [wise] VIRGINS [PLURAL]" [etc], whom He is NOT coming to "MARRY"... though they are indeed also "saints/believers/righteous/saved" persons, having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... IN/DURING/WITHIN the Trib yrs)
____________
Not all saints of all time periods are "THE BRIDE / WIFE"... example "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom".
[see again, Lk 12:36-37,38,40 and context (along with its parallel in Matt24:42-51), where Lk12:36-37,40 says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ... THEN "the MEAL [G347; see Mt8:11 and parallel]"]
Read the passage:
Matthew 25:1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be LIKE ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
It says LIKE. Did you catch that?
This is a parable that just illustrates how we should be prepare for His return. It NEVER says that those alive when He returns are actual virgin maids in waiting.
No, the tribulation saints are part of the Church and Jesus won't commence the wedding ceremony until we're all gathered, including them. They're not a separate group. As a matter of fact, when the antichrist comes and we're all still here, WE will be the tribulation saints.
@2ndTimeIsTheCharm , do you think the "Bride / Wife" is an actual single/singular woman only, and no one else (as in, no men are saved)?? It's highly doubtful you think such.
I maintain that "the Bride/Wife [singular]" is whom the "MARRIAGE" pertains (and involves both male and female members of the "ONE BODY" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]--corporately referred to in 2Cor11:2 as "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" who is presently "betrothed" to Christ, but whom Paul says he will "PRESENT [G3936]" to Christ);
The "WITH" word "G4862 - UNIONed-with [Him]" (used of US) pertains to the "MARRIAGE" itself;
... but the "FIVE [wise] virginS [plural]" are NOT a picture / illustration of whom He will be "MARRYING"...
INSTEAD, they (will) "went in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him TO THE WEDDING FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES, i.e. the earthly Millennial Kingdom age. (THAT is what THEY are a "picture / illustration" of! And it's not just five single women they represent either. No one is making such a point.
)
--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (see Mt25:1, for one example) IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (which will commence IN EARNEST at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth; it likely involves also the period immediately leading up to that point as well).
His/Jesus' illustrations themselves DISTINGUISH "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" from that of the "FIVE virginS [PLURAL]" and the "guestS [PLURAL]" (etc).
They are simple enough for a child to understand--My own five year olds have understood the difference between the bride and the [plural] bridesmaids--it is a difference that should be fairly evident (the PICTURE in scripture, Mt25:1-13, is NOT meant to illustrate Jesus' intention to "MARRY" 10 or even 5 virginS [PLURAL]--THAT is a marring/skewing of the picture / illustration (and many people DO teach it this incorrect way)--the PURPOSE of that illustration in Matt25:1-13 is NOT about "the MARRIAGE" but about "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" i.e. the MK age, and who it is that will ENTER IT)
[...but, note also, today our wedding celebrations are different, time-wise, to that of the time and culture when these were written]
____________
John 2... we know was a "wedding FEAST / SUPPER" because there were many GUESTS [plural] present, as well as the "governor / ruler of the FEAST"
I maintain that "the Bride/Wife [singular]" is whom the "MARRIAGE" pertains (and involves both male and female members of the "ONE BODY" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]--corporately referred to in 2Cor11:2 as "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" who is presently "betrothed" to Christ, but whom Paul says he will "PRESENT [G3936]" to Christ);
The "WITH" word "G4862 - UNIONed-with [Him]" (used of US) pertains to the "MARRIAGE" itself;
... but the "FIVE [wise] virginS [plural]" are NOT a picture / illustration of whom He will be "MARRYING"...
INSTEAD, they (will) "went in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him TO THE WEDDING FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES, i.e. the earthly Millennial Kingdom age. (THAT is what THEY are a "picture / illustration" of! And it's not just five single women they represent either. No one is making such a point.
)--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (see Mt25:1, for one example) IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (which will commence IN EARNEST at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth; it likely involves also the period immediately leading up to that point as well).
His/Jesus' illustrations themselves DISTINGUISH "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" from that of the "FIVE virginS [PLURAL]" and the "guestS [PLURAL]" (etc).
They are simple enough for a child to understand--My own five year olds have understood the difference between the bride and the [plural] bridesmaids--it is a difference that should be fairly evident (the PICTURE in scripture, Mt25:1-13, is NOT meant to illustrate Jesus' intention to "MARRY" 10 or even 5 virginS [PLURAL]--THAT is a marring/skewing of the picture / illustration (and many people DO teach it this incorrect way)--the PURPOSE of that illustration in Matt25:1-13 is NOT about "the MARRIAGE" but about "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" i.e. the MK age, and who it is that will ENTER IT)
[...but, note also, today our wedding celebrations are different, time-wise, to that of the time and culture when these were written]
____________
John 2... we know was a "wedding FEAST / SUPPER" because there were many GUESTS [plural] present, as well as the "governor / ruler of the FEAST"
Hi
no offense I never care for these kind of threads. At some point one of the views gets made fun of and that always effects the holy Spirit. With each view something as in scriptures gets left out. Just the fact the OT gets left out in all this. In my personal walk I have never once got Him to talk about "caught up". Try it no one here heard from Him about PRE or MID or POST and we never will. I know a preacher from a different country said Christ went through ever verse and Christ told him we all got it wrong. I did notice that "story" he shared changed a few times so I put no weight in that lol. Its wonderful how you reply to different views, I really like that thanks. My view? When I was young I would share but I learned I could never prove it without some "speculation" and giving only one definition to some words and telling others "what that verse is really saying" . Example one that comes to mind is 2 Thess 2:3. That word which was translated printed in the bible as "departure" in the past yet both views "pre/post" tend to only share one definition. One will only use departure, the other "falling away". I'm not here to back up my personal view with His word. Not here to change anyones view.
I know according to His word I am promised 70+ years yet I was never promised tomorrow. Hindsight is 20/20 yet back then there was no New Testament. For me to take some things He said and blindly apply them as if He was talking to Christians/Church for me is unwise. So I only have this one moment right now so I made the choice to always be ready now. I am always watching, thinking, read for Him now. I am always watching everything I do.. so its pleasing to Him and a witness to the world. To always be ready always be thinking about Him.. knowing any moment.. oh there is nothing better. I know for me in my searching just after He rose went up AMEN.. they also did this.
Pre Trib -----We are in the church age now -----Folks
https://www.gotquestions.org/church-age.html
An “age” is an historical period of time or an era. Some historians divide human history into many epochs and name them according to their defining characteristics: Middle Ages, Modern Age, Postmodern Age, etc. Biblical history, too, can be divided into different eras. When those divisions emphasize God’s interaction with His creation, we call them dispensations. More broadly, biblical history can be divided into two periods, roughly following the division of Old and New Testaments: the Age of the Law and the Church Age.
The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.
The Church is composed of those individuals who have by faith accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior and Lord (John 1:12; Acts 9:31). Therefore, the Church is people rather than denominations or buildings. It is the Body of Christ of which He is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23).
The Greek word ecclesia, translated “church,” means “a called-out assembly.” The Church is universal in scope but meets locally in smaller bodies.
The Church Age comprises the entire dispensation of Grace. “The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17).
For the first time in history, God actually indwells His creatures, permanently and eternally. In other dispensations the Holy Spirit was always present and always at work, but He would come upon people temporarily (e.g., 1 Samuel 16:14). The Church Age is marked by the Holy Spirit’s permanent indwelling of His people (John 14:16).
Scripture makes a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church (1 Corinthians 10:32). There is some overlap because, individually, many Jews believe in Jesus as their Messiah and are therefore part of the Church. But God’s covenants with the nation of Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Those promises await fulfillment during the Millennial Kingdom, after the Church Age ends (Ezekiel 34; 37; 45; Jeremiah 30; 33; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 19).
The Church Age will end when God’s people are raptured out of the world and taken to be with the Lord (1 Corinthians 15:51-57).
The rapture will be followed in heaven by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9) as the Church, the Bride of Christ, receives her heavenly reward. Until then, the Church carries on in hope, exhorted to “stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58).
https://www.gotquestions.org/church-age.html
An “age” is an historical period of time or an era. Some historians divide human history into many epochs and name them according to their defining characteristics: Middle Ages, Modern Age, Postmodern Age, etc. Biblical history, too, can be divided into different eras. When those divisions emphasize God’s interaction with His creation, we call them dispensations. More broadly, biblical history can be divided into two periods, roughly following the division of Old and New Testaments: the Age of the Law and the Church Age.
The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.
The Church is composed of those individuals who have by faith accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior and Lord (John 1:12; Acts 9:31). Therefore, the Church is people rather than denominations or buildings. It is the Body of Christ of which He is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23).
The Greek word ecclesia, translated “church,” means “a called-out assembly.” The Church is universal in scope but meets locally in smaller bodies.
The Church Age comprises the entire dispensation of Grace. “The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17).
For the first time in history, God actually indwells His creatures, permanently and eternally. In other dispensations the Holy Spirit was always present and always at work, but He would come upon people temporarily (e.g., 1 Samuel 16:14). The Church Age is marked by the Holy Spirit’s permanent indwelling of His people (John 14:16).
Scripture makes a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church (1 Corinthians 10:32). There is some overlap because, individually, many Jews believe in Jesus as their Messiah and are therefore part of the Church. But God’s covenants with the nation of Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Those promises await fulfillment during the Millennial Kingdom, after the Church Age ends (Ezekiel 34; 37; 45; Jeremiah 30; 33; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 19).
The Church Age will end when God’s people are raptured out of the world and taken to be with the Lord (1 Corinthians 15:51-57).
The rapture will be followed in heaven by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9) as the Church, the Bride of Christ, receives her heavenly reward. Until then, the Church carries on in hope, exhorted to “stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58).
Hello! I was raised pre trib, but in the last few years I have come to believe post trib or pre wrath, still working out those details. I have ideas, but it would all be found in the book of 1st opinions...
The main passage that has changed my view is in Matthew, the parable of the wheat and the tares, where it is stated that the wheat and the tares grow together until the time of the harvest, and the tares are gathered first, then the wheat.
Its been very interesting reading, looking through all the posts on this thread.
Have a blessed day!
TG
I agree with you on this but go past even those views and adopt a post-wrath view.
The captain of the angel armies is our groom this case, and the groom doesn't engage in war for a year after the time he is married to his bride in order to attend to the happiness of her happiness. So, going by the referenced scripture where the tares are bundled up first, it becomes apparent that he 'secures the area' of his enemies so He and His wife can reign in peace, then, after the (1000) year(s) is over, they are 'unbundled' (but just so they burn that much quicker) when they are thrown into the pit of fire.
That's how we stoke our campfires, right? We untie the bundle of sticks that'd been gathered and throw them in one by one rather than the entire bundle all at once.
-T
Yes, the harvest judgment describes this in Rev 14:14-20. However, it's debatable about when this actually happens because God has made many promises that His people will be spared from the Wrath of God, which begins in Rev 6:12-17 which is around mid-Trib.
Hi
Its wonderful how you reply to different views, I really like that thanks. My view? When I was young I would share but I learned I could never prove it without some "speculation" and giving only one definition to some words and telling others "what that verse is really saying" . Example one that comes to mind is 2 Thess 2:3. That word which was translated printed in the bible as "departure" in the past yet both views "pre/post" tend to only share one definition. One will only use departure, the other "falling away". I'm not here to back up my personal view with His word. Not here to change anyones view.
I know according to His word I am promised 70+ years yet I was never promised tomorrow. Hindsight is 20/20 yet back then there was no New Testament. For me to take some things He said and blindly apply them as if He was talking to Christians/Church for me is unwise. So I only have this one moment right now so I made the choice to always be ready now. I am always watching, thinking, read for Him now. I am always watching everything I do.. so its pleasing to Him and a witness to the world. To always be ready always be thinking about Him.. knowing any moment.. oh there is nothing better. I know for me in my searching just after He rose went up AMEN.. they also did this.
Thank you for taking the time to share your view. Although at this point in time I'm mid-Trib/pre-Wrath, I will be very happy if it happens pre-Trib. I trust the Lord will keep His many promises about sparing His children from HIs Wrath to come, but if we must go through it, I'm sure He will protect us through it. I like the point you made about always being ready, because no one knows the day or hour. My motto is "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." I'm ready to go anytime! Blessings to you.
I agree that God’s people will be spared from his wrath, even if it’s happening all around them. Maybe in a supernatural way? I don’t know. But as far as timing, Jesus defined the terms of the parable later in Matthew 13:39 saying the Harvest is the end of the world. That’s the reason I believe it to be toward the end of the tribulation period.
Blessings Brother!
TG