Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?

[Lafftur]

I already showed you the split and who is responsible for the split. Does Christ set up the Abomination of Desolation or does the Antichrist? It is simply amazing how Christians do not understand these simple facts.

So please read what I posted again carefully and see that Christ was crucified in 30 AD (as per that prophecy), but this seven year period is in the future (which Christ Himself confirmed, and then Paul also did the same)

The abomination that makes desolation occurs in the last 3 1/2 years which is all the time the antichrist gets, NEVER does Jesus Christ have anything to do with the abomination that causes desolation.

Jesus Christ already brought the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation on the nation of Israel during His 3 1/2 years of public ministry. Israel missed their Messiah but, there is still time!

Jesus Christ came in peace and confirmed the Promise of the Covenant God had made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the True Christ. He gave the FINAL sacrifice that caused all animal sacrifices to cease being no longer necessary.

In the middle of the week (7 years) Messiah is cut off.

The 1st 3 1/2 years is Jesus Christ.

The 2nd 3 1/2 years is the antichrist.

 

[LoriSaysHey]

~
I've watched a few movies relative to the so-called Rapture. They all omit a
very showy portion of that future event wherein 2,000 years of Christians
will return from death to join those living so that everyone together can
ascend to meet Christ up in the sky all at one time.

We're talking about an event wherein Christians won't just vanish at the
snap of the fingers like Hollywood typically portrays it, but instead the entire
procedure will be easily observed by everyone all 'round the globe as millions
of Christians of all ages, races, and genders evacuate the earth like a human
Oort cloud.

I expect quite a few Christians will be taken up from interior locations like
office buildings, factories, mines, garages, homes, schools, vehicles, and
malls, etc. Nobody will bump their heads on the way out because, according
to John 20:19 and John 20:26, He who created all things can easily
manipulate the structure of solid objects to allow the human body to pass
thru unimpeded.

Point being: I can't help but wonder about the effect this event is going to
have upon anti-rapture folks; especially when 2,000 years of deceased
Christians suddenly make an appearance alive seemingly out of nowhere.
_

Agree. Rev 14 is a close-up of the rapture. Hollywood never includes the scene in Rev 1:7 where it says that "every eye will see Him in the clouds" Imagine that - every eye on the planet will see Him. What an awesome God we serve!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Rev 14 is a close-up of the rapture.

Another common fallacy. Revelation 14 is a picture of divine judgments on an unbelieving world. It even speaks of the winepress of God's wrath. But no. "It is a picture of the Rapture"! NO ONE WILL FIND THE RAPTURE IN REVELATION.

 

[Lafftur]

I don’t think Revelation 14 is about the rapture of the believers…

Another CC member once explained the 144,000 and I agree with him.

He said the 144,000 are all the male babies from birth to 2 yrs old that were slaughtered in Bethlehem and surrounding towns by King Herod because he was trying to kill Jesus Christ.

All those male babies were the first martyrs for Christ.

Revelation 14:1-5

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.

These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...v.14.2,Rev.14.3,Rev.14.4,Rev.14.5&version=KJV

 

[Lafftur]

Also, those angels that are reaping people from the Earth in Revelation 14 are throwing them in God’s wine press for His Wrath… there is no way that is the rapture.


And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying,

Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag....17,Rev.14.18,Rev.14.19,Rev.14.20&version=KJV

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another CC member once explained the 144,000 and I agree with him.

He said the 144,000 are all the male babies from birth to 2 yrs old that were slaughtered in Bethlehem and surrounding towns by King Herod because he was trying to kill Jesus Christ.

All those male babies were the first martyrs for Christ.

May I ask, do you believe "the 144,000" in Rev14 are the same "144,000" in chpt 7?




Here's how I see it. Yes, they are the same "144,000," in both chpt 14 and chpt 7, and the text (7:3) states this of them:

Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[See 1:1 where this same word (in blue) is used--"to SHOW unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"--IOW, these are "yet future" persons who will exist on the earth in/during that "future," specific, limited time-period we call the "7-year Trib" leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth; Note how the phrase "SERVANTS of our God" is used elsewhere in Scripture, that is, of whom it speaks about using this phrase ("servants of God" / "servants of our God"... or even "Thy servants...")]

The 144,000
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.






Make sense? =)

 

[Lafftur]

May I ask, do you believe "the 144,000" in Rev14 are the same "144,000" in chpt 7?




Here's how I see it. Yes, they are the same "144,000," in both chpt 14 and chpt 7, and the text (7:3) states this of them:

Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[See 1:1 where this same word (in blue) is used--"to SHOW unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"--IOW, these are "yet future" persons who will exist on the earth in/during that "future," specific, limited time-period we call the "7-year Trib" leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth; Note how the phrase "SERVANTS of our God" is used elsewhere in Scripture, that is, of whom it speaks about using this phrase ("servants of God" / "servants of our God"... or even "Thy servants...")]

The 144,000
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.






Make sense? =)

Yes, I believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is the SAME 144,000 in Revelation 14.

They are all the male babies martyred by King Herod and God placed His Seal on them and marked them as His before they were killed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Okay @Lafftur ,

I would just suggest that you would carefully examine how the word "servants [G1401]" is used in both Rev7:3 and 1:1 (same context)

... and then start a study on how this word is used elsewhere, starting in Matthew with the phrase "his servants [G1401]" making sure to read the surrounding CONTEXTS also, to ascertain just "who" these "his servants [G1401]" are:



Mat 18:23
Therefore G1223 G5124 is the kingdom G932 of heaven G3772 likened G3666 unto a certain G444 king, G935 which G3739 would G2309 take G4868 account G3056 of G3326 his G846 servants G1401




Mat 21:34
And G1161 when G3753 the time G2540 of the fruit G2590 drew near, G1448 he sent G649 his G846 servants G1401 to G4314 the husbandmen, G1092 that they might receive G2983 the fruits G2590 of it. G846


Mat 21:35
And G2532 the husbandmen G1092 took G2983 his G846 servants G1401 and beat G1194 one, G3739 G3303 and G1161 killed G615 another, G3739 and G1161 stoned G3036 another. G3739





Mat 22:3
And G2532 sent forth G649 his G846 servants G1401 to call G2564 them that were bidden G2564 to G1519 the wedding: G1062 and G2532 they would G2309 not G3756 come. G2064


Mat 22:6
And G1161 the remnant G3062 took G2902 his G846 servants G1401 and entreated them spitefully, G5195 and G2532 slew G615 them.


Mat 22:8
Then G5119 saith he G3004 to his G846 servants G1401 G3303 The wedding G1062 is G2076 ready, G2092 but G1161 they which were bidden G2564 were G2258 not G3756 worthy. G514





Mar 13:34
For the Son of man is as G5613 a man G444 taking a far journey, G590 who left G863 his G846 house, G3614 and G2532 gave G1325 authority G1849 to his G846 servants G1401 and G2532 to every man G1538 his G846 work, G2041 and G2532 commanded G1781 the porter G2377 to G2443 watch. G1127



... "his servants" used elsewhere...

 

[LoriSaysHey]

Yes, I believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is the SAME 144,000 in Revelation 14.

They are all the male babies martyred by King Herod and God placed His Seal on them and marked them as His before they were killed.

Question for you Lafftur. If you believe that the 144,000 are the same in Chapter 7 and 14, yet you believe these are babies, then how can babies sing the new song before the throne in Rev 14:3.

 

[LoriSaysHey]

Another common fallacy. Revelation 14 is a picture of divine judgments on an unbelieving world. It even speaks of the winepress of God's wrath. But no. "It is a picture of the Rapture"! NO ONE WILL FIND THE RAPTURE IN REVELATION.

Hi Nehemiah6, I was taught and believe that the Harvest Judgment described in Rev 14:1-16 are the Believers being separated from the unbelievers and taken up to Jesus who is sitting on the cloud (vs 14). This same vision of Jesus sitting on the clouds is described in Rev 1:7 where Jesus says that all eyes will see Him. Same vision is described in 1 Thes 4:17 and Daniel 7:13. Verses 17-20 are the unbelievers being thrown into "the great wine press of the wrath of God." per verse 19. The Harvest Judgment reflects back to what Jesus said in Mat 13:24-43 in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares about the farmer who let the weeds (represented as unbelievers) grow with the wheat (represented as Believers) and then during the harvest they were separated. Just as we the Believers must live among the unbelievers for now, but during the rapture, we are separated from the unbelievers and then after we're raptured, those that remain will go through God's Wrath.

 

[Lafftur]

Question for you Lafftur. If you believe that the 144,000 are the same in Chapter 7 and 14, yet you believe these are babies, then how can babies sing the new song before the throne in Rev 14:3.

The male babies’ bodies remained on Earth, their souls and spirits are with Jesus Christ in Heaven and they are NOT still babies, they are the servants of the Lord.

Like us, they will return with the Lord on white horses, receive their bodies back and be changed in the blink of an eye and be just like Jesus Christ.

 

[Lafftur]

^ Okay @Lafftur ,

I would just suggest that you would carefully examine how the word "servants [G1401]" is used in both Rev7:3 and 1:1 (same context)

... and then start a study on how this word is used elsewhere, starting in Matthew with the phrase "his servants [G1401]" making sure to read the surrounding CONTEXTS also, to ascertain just "who" these "his servants [G1401]" are:



Mat 18:23
Therefore G1223 G5124 is the kingdom G932 of heaven G3772 likened G3666 unto a certain G444 king, G935 which G3739 would G2309 take G4868 account G3056 of G3326 his G846 servants G1401




Mat 21:34
And G1161 when G3753 the time G2540 of the fruit G2590 drew near, G1448 he sent G649 his G846 servants G1401 to G4314 the husbandmen, G1092 that they might receive G2983 the fruits G2590 of it. G846


Mat 21:35
And G2532 the husbandmen G1092 took G2983 his G846 servants G1401 and beat G1194 one, G3739 G3303 and G1161 killed G615 another, G3739 and G1161 stoned G3036 another. G3739





Mat 22:3
And G2532 sent forth G649 his G846 servants G1401 to call G2564 them that were bidden G2564 to G1519 the wedding: G1062 and G2532 they would G2309 not G3756 come. G2064


Mat 22:6
And G1161 the remnant G3062 took G2902 his G846 servants G1401 and entreated them spitefully, G5195 and G2532 slew G615 them.


Mat 22:8
Then G5119 saith he G3004 to his G846 servants G1401 G3303 The wedding G1062 is G2076 ready, G2092 but G1161 they which were bidden G2564 were G2258 not G3756 worthy. G514





Mar 13:34
For the Son of man is as G5613 a man G444 taking a far journey, G590 who left G863 his G846 house, G3614 and G2532 gave G1325 authority G1849 to his G846 servants G1401 and G2532 to every man G1538 his G846 work, G2041 and G2532 commanded G1781 the porter G2377 to G2443 watch. G1127



... "his servants" used elsewhere...

All the male babies that were killed by King Herod because of Jesus Christ are the servants of the Lord on Earth and currently in Heaven… they are the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14, in Heaven they are no longer babies.

 

[LoriSaysHey]

The male babies’ bodies remained on Earth, their souls and spirits are with Jesus Christ in Heaven and they are NOT still babies, they are the servants of the Lord.

Like us, they will return with the Lord on white horses, receive their bodies back and be changed in the blink of an eye and be just like Jesus Christ.

I see. Interesting view. Never heard this one before. Although I do agree that all children (including babies) who die go straight to heaven to be with the Lord. So, if the 144,000 are in heaven, then why was the angel told to put God's seal on their foreheads to protect them from His Wrath which was about to begin? In Chapter 7, they are alive on the earth (not souls in heaven as you believe). Also, according the Chapter 12, the Woman (who is Israel) is protected and nourished during the Wrath of God for 1,260 days (or 3-1/2 years). Do you agree that the 144,000, who are descendents of the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob's 12 sons) are also Woman talked about in Chapter 12?

 

[LoriSaysHey]

Also, those angels that are reaping people from the Earth in Revelation 14 are throwing them in God’s wine press for His Wrath… there is no way that is the rapture.


And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying,

Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag....17,Rev.14.18,Rev.14.19,Rev.14.20&version=KJV

I again. You stated above that "Also, those angels that are reaping people from the Earth in Revelation 14 are throwing them into God's wine press for His Wrath...there is no way that this is the rapture."

I agree that the last part of Rev 14:17-20 includes the angels throwing people into God's wine press for His Wrath; however, the first part of Rev 14, verses 1-3 says that Jesus Himself is sitting on a cloud with a sharp sickle and it says in verse 16, "And He who sat on the cloud (Jesus) swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was repeated." These are the believers all over the world being raptured.

 

[Omegatime]

I again. You stated above that "Also, those angels that are reaping people from the Earth in Revelation 14 are throwing them into God's wine press for His Wrath...there is no way that this is the rapture."

I agree that the last part of Rev 14:17-20 includes the angels throwing people into God's wine press for His Wrath; however, the first part of Rev 14, verses 1-3 says that Jesus Himself is sitting on a cloud with a sharp sickle and it says in verse 16, "And He who sat on the cloud (Jesus) swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was repeated." These are the believers all over the world being raptured.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Day 1 of the Tribulation--Covenant with many including Israel for protection, building the temple-nation against nation in progress first 3 1/2 years.

Day 1260 of the tribulation--Man called antichrist takes seat in temple claiming to be God. Two witnesses killed. Second half of tribulation begins.

Satan and his angels thrown to earth. Great persecution in Israel

Beast out of the sea is 10 nations around the Med sea.

Beast out of the earth is the kingdom of the antichrist

Day 1290---Abomination that causes desolation placed on temple mount.

Day 1335--Daniel 12:12 Blessed Day, also called the Great and Glorious day in Acts 2. This moment in time called the Day of the Lord where the Great and Terrible day begins ( Joel 2 ) and the resurrection rapture happens in Rev 14. This is how the time is shortened. From the antichrist taking his seat in temple till this day is 75 days of the second half. Another 1185 days left which will be fulfilled by the vial or bowl judgements. Happens at last moment of the 7th Trumpet. Restrainer removed on this day--the church.

Time of Jacob's trouble in full progress

Day 2520-or 7 years. End of the Tribulation and Sheep/Goat Judgement takes place for the nations ( gentiles )

 

[Omegatime]

I should add:

Day 1 of the Tribulation--Feast of Trumpets

Day 1290---happens during Passover week

Day 1335---Pentecost

 

[NightTwister]

You forgot "past-trib."

 

[selahsays]

I’m post-trib.

 

[Omegatime]

You forgot "past-trib."

Gee, why go farther, no one understands what I already wrote lol but a good topic

 

[glf]

Hey Lori...
Praise the Lord in Jesus' name both now and forevermore!
Like you I also once believed in a pre-trib rapture, but after some more time in scripture, I came to a mid- trib opinion and here's why:

Judgement begins at the house of God. 1 Pet 4: 17.

That which hinders will hinder until taken out of the way and then that wicked one will be revealed. 2 Thes 2: 7. (see vs 3-12).

He is revealed by the abomination of desolation by proclaiming himself to be god within the Jewish temple's holy of holies. Matt 24:15.

Jesus gave the church victory over the gates of hell and so the evil one has to wait until the church is out of the way in order to successfully show himself as god to the world. Matt 16: 18.