Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

[biker]

I did say this is new to me.

But answer me this.

If God is 3 Persons, why would Jesus allow the Scribe to think God is only One Person?

That would make Jesus a liar!


The Scribe claims God is 1 Person and Jesus does this:
34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God.And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."

^
If God is 3 persons, then Jesus just lied to this Scribe!

 

[biker]

34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God.And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."

^
That states Jesus perceived the Scribe answered WISELY!

Why would Jesus think this if the Scribe was wrong?

 

[biker]

Let's do this the right way:

From the Scribe:
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength,

The Scribe specifically claims about God that God is a HE verse 32, and a HIM verse 33. Clearly the Scribe has made God into ONE PERSON.


Then Jesus answers this ^ with:

34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God.And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."

^
That states Jesus perceived the Scribe answered WISELY!




Why would Jesus think this if the Scribe was wrong?


If you can show me where the Scribe is making the words HE and HIM to be 3 Persons with Jesus confirming it, I will denounce what I think I just have been revealed!

 

[Blain]

This post of yours CANNOT BE FOUND in the Bible.

It can be found in a CREED.

Which is more important, what the Bible claims or what some CREED claims?

Then show me in the bible where the trinity is disproven also it is in the bible abundantly so in fact.
Just to name a few ....
John 10:30 The Father and I are one.


2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.


3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

 

[biker]

T
John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

That shows in the flesh body of Jesus DWELLS the FATHER. Technically, this could make the WORD and the FATHER the same Person.

2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

Where did I say Jesus was not God? But I can still claim:

John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

That shows in the flesh body of Jesus DWELLS the FATHER. Technically, this could make the WORD and the FATHER the same Person.

3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I can use the same answer:

John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

That shows in the flesh body of Jesus DWELLS the FATHER. Technically, this could make the WORD and the FATHER the same Person.

4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Still can use same answer:

John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

That shows in the flesh body of Jesus DWELLS the FATHER. Technically, this could make the WORD and the FATHER the same Person.

5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

This same answers proves it:
John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

That shows in the flesh body of Jesus DWELLS the FATHER. Technically, this could make the WORD and the FATHER the same Person.



But I will ask this:
Where does it say the Deity of God is 3 Persons?

 

[biker]

Let's do this the right way:

From the Scribe:
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength,

The Scribe specifically claims about God that God is a HE verse 32, and a HIM verse 33. Clearly the Scribe has made God into ONE PERSON.


Then Jesus answers this ^ with:

34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God.And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."

^
That states Jesus perceived the Scribe answered WISELY!




Why would Jesus think this if the Scribe was wrong?


If you can show me where the Scribe is making the words HE and HIM to be 3 Persons with Jesus confirming it, I will denounce what I think I just have been revealed!

But I see you will ignore this question.

I WONDER WHY?

No need to answer, there is literally only ONE TRUE ANSWER and it's not what you desire to give!

 

[biker]

What's funny, Jesus confirms God is 1 Person in Mark 12, but He never claims God is 3 Persons.

Do we then accept what He confirms to the Scribe, or ignore it because we have misinterpreted the Bible?

 

[biker]

This is what I believe because this comes from the Church Fathers:

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.

This to me Means:
God in One Package (the FATHER), but there are 2 specific Parts of God (the WORD and the WISDOM [Holy Spirit]) that remain a part of God but can also work independently. So, they are always Internal and External to the One body of God.

And if we search the Scriptures, we know the specific Purposes of the WORD and the WISDOM.

Creation, Salvation, Resurrection, Gifts, direct connection to God, confirming Christ, Comforter, eventual final Judgement.



It still is God being Triune, but like the Church Fathers, puts God into 1 Body!

 

[Blain]

But I see you will ignore this question.

I WONDER WHY?

No need to answer, there is literally only ONE TRUE ANSWER and it's not what you desire to give!

I think there is a misunderstanding of some sort here, you know me and you know my kind of thinking you know you and I like to think the same way and perhaps I merely misunderstood you or vise versa.
I believe in one God but the trinity is not three separate persons it is merely three different aspects. I mean when you think of a person we are not merely flesh and bone are we? we are mind body and soul but still the same person there isn't three of us. This is how God is as well unless you think that the father Jesus and the holy spirit are somehow three seperate people and not one person. which I don't understand how people think that but it is not my place to judge anyone

There are things in scripture that do not just come out and say it you have to understand what is being implied sometimes.

 

[jaybird88]

Jehovah Witness?

so now your going to try the old "guilt by association" tactic. and how does this establish your point? if JWs say it then it must be false, they also say Jesus was Jewish, does this mean Jesus was not Jewish?
no, they dont even visit me anymore because i supported women teaching.

 

[Mattathias]

Jesus wasn’t, isn’t, and never will be a trinitarian.

His God was, is, and will always be only one person.

By definition, Jesus is a unitarian.

 

[biker]

I think there is a misunderstanding of some sort here, you know me and you know my kind of thinking you know you and I like to think the same way and perhaps I merely misunderstood you or vise versa.
I believe in one God but the trinity is not three separate persons it is merely three different aspects. I mean when you think of a person we are not merely flesh and bone are we? we are mind body and soul but still the same person there isn't three of us. This is how God is as well unless you think that the father Jesus and the holy spirit are somehow three seperate people and not one person. which I don't understand how people think that but it is not my place to judge anyone

There are things in scripture that do not just come out and say it you have to understand what is being implied sometimes.

Amen Brother,

I see it similar to you. But how I was taught I can assure you the Assemblies of God did not preach on Mark 12. I would had remembered because it would have clicked and I would have made light of the specifics to this verse. I am willing to bet no true Trinity Church teaches on Mark 12. It literally cuts their throats.

 

[biker]

Also, this verse here (please read it carefully):
John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Look at the last part of this verse:
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

We can literally take Jesus' entire 3 year Ministry and claim He didn't do a thing, but be a flesh body for the FATHER DWELLING in Him WHO was doing the Miracles and the talking and preaching.

Jesus literally tells us that ALL was witnessed about Jesus was actually the FATHER doing it 100%

That is proof that the WORD and the FATHER are the same and aligns with this:

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.

No wonder Paul called the WORD and the FATHER EXPRESS IMAGE of one another.

Jesus basically told us the Father dwelled inside Him and did everything we see and hear. No wonder Jesus is known to have the full Deity of God within Him, it was the Father living in His flesh Body doing it all.

 

[biker]

John 14:10 is the Greatest Testimony told to us by Christ!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

i would like to know how salvation is based on the trinity doctrine.

Because it is a Trinitarian work that brought salvation to lost mankind. The Father gave a number of ppl that no one can number to the Son. The Son then lives the perfect life for them that they could never live. He died the death that was rightly theirs to atone for their sins. He then rose from the grave for their justification. And He ascended to the Father and is seated at His right side interceding for who? All mankind? No. The saints.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Oh I see, you’re prowling about looking for a fight.

Yeop. Pretty much.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

i would like to know how salvation is based on the trinity doctrine.

Because it is Trintarian in its essence. The gospel is about the Son dying and raising again and ascending to the Father.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Are all the people before the 500s in hell because they were born before the Trinity doctrine was invented?

It was not invented in the 500's. That's just you unitarians making things up as you go.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

so now your going to try the old "guilt by association" tactic. and how does this establish your point? if JWs say it then it must be false, they also say Jesus was Jewish, does this mean Jesus was not Jewish?
no, they dont even visit me anymore because i supported women teaching.

JW's claim the Christ is a created being.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I recently started working with a JW that just won't quit, he practically runs to my truck every time I show up on site. We've discussed some issues but I feel it's time I lay out a proper presentation of the Trinity found in scripture. Please help @Sackcloth-N-Ashes @UnitedWithChrist What approach/order seems to work best for y'all, where do you start?

I think it's appropriate to define the Trinity first and then identify which issues he has with it.

1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. Jesus Christ is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. These three are distinct, coessential, coeternal Persons.

With a JW, they believe that Jesus is a "lesser god" which is called henotheism. They don't believe he existed with God since forever.

They would also deny that God and Christ are coessential or share the same essence. I would point out the Scriptures which prove this.

However, you must realize that every cultic group (including the one I came from) has already developed "rescue devices" that are employed as soon as you bring these topics up. "Rescue devices" are explanations that are "plugs" in their theology. If you can imagine their theology as a ship with a bunch of holes in it, but these holes are filled with rags stuffed in them that delay their sinking a while, that is a good analogy. Their authorities have indoctrinated them in these explanations and that is what they will fall back to, ultimately.

There is a book called What the Bible Teaches About the Trinity by Stuart Olyott that may be helpful. There are many books about the Trinity, of course, but this one seems simple and that might give a good outline for your discussion. I have not read it but I have looked at a previous version of it, and it is hitting on all the right topics. I believe Grace to You recommended it to me. It is only about 100 pages or less.