Are you a body with a soul, or a soul with a body?

[TMS]

From all we know and understand, there is a point when we stop living.
The brain stops getting oxygen and the organs fail. We die physically and this is easy to understand because we see it happening.

The body deteriorates and breaks down until it becomes dust again.

The life returns to God and we are dead.

The soul is not a spiritual force that can not be seen. The soul is a living person.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man became,, BECAME, a living soul.

Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Job 27:2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; 3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

The soul is not immortal
The soul is a result of God giving us life and a body.

Without a body or without the life that God gives we are dead.

The devil has been pushing this lie from the start. " You will not die" he said. The immortal soul is part of that lie.

 

[posthuman]

Not animals. Never seen anything about them. There is also no resurrection for the second death.

Romans 8:19-23​

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected [it] in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only [that,] but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.​

 

[posthuman]

Without a body or without the life that God gives we are dead.

The devil has been pushing this lie from the start. " You will not die" he said. The immortal soul is part of that lie.

why does Christ describe both the beggar Lazarus and the rich man as though it is a plain matter of fact that they still have consciousness while their physical bodies are in the grave?

is Jesus being deceitful?

 

[posthuman]

The devil has been pushing this lie from the start. " You will not die" he said. The immortal soul is part of that lie.

Satans lying argument to Woman seems to me to be that she was not actually created with life, and the only way she can gain it is by sin. it's a tacit accusation against God that He has purposefully withheld goodness from her, not a simple ruse that sin has no consequence.

lack of consequence for a bad action isn't a motivator. instead what he did was convince her God had been evil in the way He created her, and that only by rejecting Him could she become truly after His image. thus she was motivated, not by there being no repercussion for her act, but by being deceived into thinking her act would bring her gain.

 

[TMS]

In bible history when does God allow dead people to communicate with the living?
It is greatly condemned.
When the Devil communicates he often comes as an angel of light..

How do we know truth from error, new age spiritualism is being accepted into Christianity through the immortality of the soul.

Ecc 9:4-7
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

There are one or 2 places in the bible that SEEM to say that dead go to heaven straight away but the overwhelming majority say that the dead know nothing.

Tradition and spiritualism are a lie that is deceiving most people.

Job 14:10-15 KJV 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

 

[Magenta]

why does Christ describe both the beggar Lazarus and the rich man as though it is a plain matter of fact that they still have consciousness while their physical bodies are in the grave?

is Jesus being deceitful?

It is the nature of apocalyptic narratives. Was Jesus being deceitful when He said cut off your hand and gouge out your eye?

 

[TMS]

why does Christ describe both the beggar Lazarus and the rich man as though it is a plain matter of fact that they still have consciousness while their physical bodies are in the grave?

is Jesus being deceitful?

Was Jesus wrong and deceitful when He said you must be born again... Nicodemus thought "literal" and didn't get the spiritual meaning...
Was Jesus deceitful when He said Joh 6:53 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

Many thought this was a hard saying... Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Do we need to literally eat Jesus?
No we need to consume Him spiritually.
Let Him become part of us.

Was Jesus being deceitful? Parables were said to illustrate lessons.

 

[posthuman]

It is the nature of apocalyptic narratives. Was Jesus being deceitful when He said cut off your hand and gouge out your eye?

Sound advice if your hand or eye is really the thing preventing you from being saved.

Was Jesus wrong and deceitful when He said you must be born again... Nicodemus thought "literal" and didn't get the spiritual meaning...
Was Jesus deceitful when He said Joh 6:53 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

Many thought this was a hard saying... Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Do we need to literally eat Jesus?
No we need to consume Him spiritually.
Let Him become part of us.

Was Jesus being deceitful? Parables were said to illustrate lessons.

you think a man being plainly described as fully conscious and able to speak and think and feel while his body is in the grave is an allegory?

an allegory of what?

 

[Magenta]

Sound advice if your hand or eye is really the thing preventing you from being saved.

I wonder how many have actually done it...

I doubt many take Jesus’ instructions literally.

Instead it is understood (at least by some) that He is employing hyperbole, a figure of speech not meant to be taken literally.

 

[ewq1938]

How can one be dead when one never dies?

All humans and animals die in the physical sense. The only death saved humans will not die is the second death.

Have you looked up the word sleep and the word dead. Dead is mortal, lifeless,...Sleep is what the body looks like before it decays, dead is a state of both spirit/soul and body/spirit/soul. The dead are dead while living in the flesh and blood as well as dead once the common death of all flesh and blood bodies comes to that being.



The biggest question that thought posses for me is what 'life' did the New Covenant bring about? Under the law of sin and death, when one died, they went to the place of the dead, having died in sin. They didn't rise until the last day. Are you saying we STILL don't rise until the last day? If so, what was the point?

I believe you are conflating multiple things. Theer is physical death and spiritual death. There is physical life and spiritual life.

A saved Christian will die the physical death but not the spiritual death. An unsaved person will die both.

Here are other problems I encounter. Either these verses are correct, or they are not. Please share how you read and understand them.


35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Where does the 'delay' come from? Do believers 'rise up' twice?

This speaks of the first death which is physical, and the resurrection after. The unsaved are resurrected back to mortal life to die a s4econd time, with soul and spirit also dying, while a saved person died physically but their resurrection is to immortality.

Is anything quickened at death of the F&B body or not?

No. All the dead, saved or not, have to wait for the time of their resurrection.

Do we sow the F&B body that WILL rise again or not?

"thou sowest not that body that shall be,"

If we don't rise up in a body when we rise up the first time, then how do we EVER rise up incorruptible?

What? We arte born, and we die and at some point there will be a physical resurrection. The saved will be immortal and the unsaved will not, and will die a second time.

because THIS says that would not be possible
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The saved do not resurrect into a corrupted F/B body.

This is quite clear isn't it? No flesh and blood and no decay rises up in incorruption, So, WHAT BODY can any souls 'returning' from heaven be coming back for?

It's complicated but to keep things simple, the body they get will not be flesh and blood like they had before dying.

Where do I find a verse that VOIDS out this one and/or changes it to 'it will be raise bodyless'

No one resurrects bodiless.

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


and/or one that states 'the living will rise', as opposed to the 'lifeless, subject to death' will rise?

No idea what you are asking here.

 

[TMS]

you think a man being plainly described as fully conscious and able to speak and think and feel while his body is in the grave is an allegory?

an allegory of what?

It is either literally what happens or it was merely a picture illustration, a metaphor, of other divine principles. So which is it? What is the more biblical picture of what’s happening? Let’s take a closer look.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes after a series of carefully told parables, which are fictional tales used to illustrate spiritual lessons. Parables are a teaching tool Jesus used as a matter of habit. “All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them” (Matthew 13:34).

Jesus’ tale says that the rich man in Hades wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue. If a radiator is overheating, how much good is a single drop of water? Likewise, would a drop of water offer any relief in the fires of hell? We can safely assume that Jesus is using hyperbole.
It is said that after he died, Lazarus was carried to the midst of Abraham’s bosom. Of course, angels do not literally carry saved people to Abraham’s bosom. We can safely assume this is yet another figure of speech. Abraham and the rich man are said to be able to freely talk to each other. But would those in paradise really be able to see, hear, and talk to the lost blistering in Hades? Would it really be paradise to see your lost loved ones burning and not be able to help them? Again, we can safely assume that Jesus was painting an illustration, not recording facts.

Most important, we can know that Jesus’ hearers that day would have understood that it was a parable. The word “Hades” was wellknown to be a word borrowed from Greek mythology. In those myths, Hades was both the name of the underworld as well as the name of the god in charge of the place.

It is clearly a parable and it is dangerous to form a doctrine from this one passage.
If we read the entire Bible the truth is clearly revealed.

 

[TMS]

All humans and animals die in the physical sense. The only death saved humans will not die is the second death.

Christ has gained victory over death and the grave .... not this life but the eternal one. We are judged and given eternal life or eternal death.

1Co 15:54-57
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

But everyone dies in this world so this must be talking about the life to come.
The life given at the second coming.

 

[TMS]

Think of a light bulb 💡

It needs physical parts + electrical current to produce light.

The physical parts are like our body
God formed us from the dust..

The Electrical current is life from God.
Only God has power to give life and only God can create life.

The light that is produced is life. A living functioning soul.

Take away the physical or the electrical components and there is no light.

When we die the electricity goes back to God. The light bulb is useless.

We need not fear because God will create new bodies and give us life when He comes again.

 

[Whomsoever]

What? We arte born, and we die and at some point there will be a physical resurrection. The saved will be immortal and the unsaved will not, and will die a second time.

'and at some point...'. Where do I find that belief put forth?

 

[Whomsoever]

We need not fear because God will create new bodies and give us life when He comes again.

Where does it say we get a new body when He comes again?

 

[Magenta]

Where does it say we get a new body when He comes again?

From 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

 

[ewq1938]

'and at some point...'. Where do I find that belief put forth?

The resurrection? It's all through the bible just search for that term.

 

[ewq1938]

Where does it say we get a new body when He comes again?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

[Magenta]

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Returning to dust can certainly be equated with "dissolving."

 

[Whomsoever]

The resurrection? It's all through the bible just search for that term.

What a journey that was and will continue being
Good morning

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

If, at our first death, we are raised up, our earthly tabernacle being dissolved, and we are clothed with a building from God, our 'mortal swallowed up by life' our transformation to be completed at the judgment seat of Christ and are now in 'a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens'

what part of us is left 'to be resurrected' at Christs return?