Apostasy 101

[Chris1975]

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation that can be lost can also falls under
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, (strait gate) shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (narrow way)

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, (strait gate) have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (narrow way).

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus clearly stated that He NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved, so Matthew 7:21-23 does not pertain to a loss of salvation. In verse 22, it's obvious what these many people were trusting in for salvation and it WAS NOT CHRIST ALONE. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Dan Corner (who is well known for attacking the OSAS doctrine and accusing believers who hold to that doctrine of promoting a license for immorality) had this to say about David Wilkerson.

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/david-ray-wilkerson.htm

 

[JohnW34]

APOSTASY

Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

So here are the questions to those who deny the apostasy is a real risk to be aware of (for true believers).

1) Those mentioned above were in liberty (v1) - Are these Christians?
2) These same people are warned not to be entangled again. (v1) - Can they be found in slavery once again?
3) The consequence is estrangement from Christ (v4) - How do you become estranged if you were not in union?
4) The fall from Grace (v4) - To those who claim Grace cannot be lost, how then does the bible say that it is lost here?

We are free.
John 8:31-32
If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free
1 Cor 10:23
"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.
Our foundation is
1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

We are free to act as we desire, and if we are of God our behaviour will show it.

 

[Chris1975]

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus clearly stated that He NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved, so Matthew 7:21-23 does not pertain to a loss of salvation. In verse 22, it's obvious what these many people were trusting in for salvation and it WAS NOT CHRIST ALONE. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Ezekiel 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

 

[Chris1975]

Dan Corner (who is well known for attacking the OSAS doctrine and accusing believers who hold to that doctrine of promoting a license for immorality) had this to say about David Wilkerson.

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/david-ray-wilkerson.htm

Looks like a shoddy website. Possibly have to update my antivirus after clicking on that link. You can find anything on the internet speaking against any man of God. I have persoanlly never come across any of Wilkerson's sermons which cause me to believe that he preaches anything other than holiness. Even in your supposed expose' link, it seems the interpreter is getting it all wrong.

 

[mailmandan]

I have persoanlly never come across any of Wilkerson's sermons which cause me to believe that he preaches anything other than holiness. Even in your supposed expose' link, it seems the interpreter is getting it all wrong.

I didn't post the link as an expose link (hence the "cautious") as if I believe everything that Dan Corner posted must be true, but for you to check out and give feedback.

 

[Chris1975]

I didn't post the link as an expose link (hence the "cautious") as if I believe everything that Dan Corner posted must be true, but for you to check out and give feedback.

Then I apologise. Got it.

 

[mailmandan]

Ezekiel 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

We already discussed this:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-5969#post-4117589
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-5970
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-5971

 

[Grandpa]

Post Nr 10 https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/#post-4121621

Grandpa, I'm going by what is written in the scriptures.

1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

It is possible to once again be deceived. Hence all the warnings to the church about this. Take the above scripture at face value.

Have you tested your philosophy out?

Have you departed from the faith? Did you ever have faith to begin with, or is it just an intellectual philosophy of the existence of God?


I tested my faith out. I am not able to forget what Christ has done for me.

 

[Chris1975]

Have you tested your philosophy out?

Have you departed from the faith? Did you ever have faith to begin with, or is it just an intellectual philosophy of the existence of God?


I tested my faith out. I am not able to forget what Christ has done for me.

I go by the Word of God. Just what is written above. How about you?

 

[DeighAnn]

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus clearly stated that He NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved, so Matthew 7:21-23 does not pertain to a loss of salvation. In verse 22, it's obvious what these many people were trusting in for salvation and it WAS NOT CHRIST ALONE. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Ok. What about the rest?

 

[preacher4truth]

It is suspect that some indeed wish for others to lose salvation, such are obsessed over this and spend their lives assisting Christ to save them, wishing to gain others to join them in their endeavor, which is in itself a false understanding of the true Gospel and a false Gospel at the same time.

For those who wish to know and/or continue in the truth, that Christ has eternally secured our salvation; John 10:27-28 &c and would like some insightful remarks that refute the OP and his position you may like to read the following:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/apostasy-and-how-it-happens/

 

[Grandpa]

I go by the Word of God. Just what is written above. How about you?

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


When people go against Faith and the Power of God I just ask "What does Faith say?".

Does Faith say "I'll probably walk away from Christ if I don't heed everything some false prophet is saying?"

Or

Does Faith say "Nothing can separate us from the Love of Our God and Saviour"

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


When people go against Faith and the Power of God I just ask "What does Faith say?".

Does Faith say "I'll probably walk away from Christ if I don't heed everything some false prophet is saying?"

Or

Does Faith say "Nothing can separate us from the Love of Our God and Saviour"

 

[Chris1975]

Deuteronomy 31
6 Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.”
8 And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”

then IN THE SAME CHAPTER

Deuteronomy 31
16 And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will [b]rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be [c]devoured.

>the never leave or forsake is CONDITIONAL. If you break the covenant you break the contract.
>the new covenant has conditions too.

 

[DeighAnn]

So why the warning by Christ
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Who is He referring to? The already "unsaved"?

 

[DeighAnn]

The very FACT that there are verses that say you can be deceived negates the possibility that "they never really were saved". The rest is just smoke and mirrors to support a "doctrine" that contains a truth.

Where does the bible state "Jesus doesn't save some who come to him"? He told us whomsoever will. So He is doing/did his part. And if there is a "great falling away" there must have been "a great coming to".

The book is written to and for those who have faith. Not those who don't.

 

[Grandpa]

Deuteronomy 31
6 Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.”
8 And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”

then IN THE SAME CHAPTER

Deuteronomy 31
16 And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will [b]rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be [c]devoured.

>the never leave or forsake is CONDITIONAL. If you break the covenant you break the contract.
>the new covenant has conditions too.

What does faith say?

Does faith say "I will walk away from Christ if I don't heed everything that some false prophet says?"

OR

Does faith say "No one can take us from the Hand of Christ"

 

[gb9]

The very FACT that there are verses that say you can be deceived negates the possibility that "they never really were saved". The rest is just smoke and mirrors to support a "doctrine" that contains a truth.

Where does the bible state "Jesus doesn't save some who come to him"? He told us whomsoever will. So He is doing/did his part. And if there is a "great falling away" there must have been "a great coming to".

The book is written to and for those who have faith. Not those who don't.

for those of you are not used to interacting with this person, she thinks the Law of Moses is divided into parts, with some in effect and some not, and that Christ followers have to keep the Sabbath to be saved.

just f.y.i..