Apostasy 101
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Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
>the gift can be revoked.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
>the gift can be revoked.
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Is that your point? This isn’t anything we haven’t heard before. Let me save you some time. Most of the people who come to CC have already formed an opinion about OSAS. A simple statement of “Repent or be lost” will be sufficient. Then you can go about your day. How much time did you already spend? Those who believe will agree and those who disagree will not. This isn’t a rebuke or anything. It’s just an observation that people, self included waste countless hours achieving nothing sharing knowledge with people not willing to hear it. Go do the things Christ told us to do, feed the hungry (not me), heal the sick and visit those in prison. You are more likely to find an audience less cemented in opinion. Then your efforts and words will plant seeds in fertile ground. The soil is hard here, no students, only teachers.
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@Hungry, I do believe there is a lot of wisdom in what you say above. And on the surface it appears exactly so, as you say. But I have given this some thought. I do believe that this platform is a global platform. I have seen many nationalities here. And I also suspect that most people on BDF are not actually posting anything, but are instead reading what others have to say. OR said in another way, I believe there is a select number of regular contributors, and most of these regular contributors act in exactly the way you describe above. I get it. We are thus "all teachers" as you rightly say. But that is not necessarily my audience. What about the person signing in from Sri Lanka, or India, trying to get an understanding of what Christianity is about? They may come onto BDF, read the various threads, but POST NOTHING. They may be afraid to ask "silly questions". Now if all they read about Christianity is a version that in my opinion is in error (i.e. false teacher version), then they may be led astray from the very start. This is why the errors are vigorously addressed. And if the sum of all of my efforts can help even just a single person, then it is worth all of my efforts. I hope you can understand it from my point of view. Yes, it is very unlikely that a fully baked opponent is likely to change their minds. Paradigms are hard to dislodge. But God.....
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I applaud your efforts to reach both the seen and the unseen at CC, sincerely. You really have done your homework. The problem isn’t that Bible doesn’t say exactly what you stated, but it also says what others say. Would this cause a seeker to be interested into delving further or would our conflicting opinions turn them away? Scripture is spiritually discerned. Those who are reborn already have understanding and those who aren’t, use scripture to conform to their beliefs. My response to you wasn’t to discourage you. I have been a member here many years and have seen (participated in) countless debates. I know it takes up a lot of time convincing those who are trying to convince you. If I may add to your knowledge, I will say this, it’s not all black and white as you describe it. Being in Christ (spiritually reborn) and being the Body is oneness. We are a new creation intertwined, connected like a machine powered by the Spirit and under the control of Christ (like a Motherboard). The imagery of being grafted and adopted and married are all very permanent. It’s not like a gym that you stopped paying for so your membership gets revoked. Being reborn and being grafted in isn’t accomplished as easy as by saying a few words and it isn’t as easy being severed, just because you can’t get your libido under control. There is a very significant connection that is evident for those connected. Trying to explain it to a nonbeliever is like explaining colour to someone blind since birth. Be blessed and may your audience find you.
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Ephesians 6 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
Children and parents: servants and masters
6 1-3 Children, the right thing for you to do is to obey your parents as those whom God has set over you. The first commandment to contain a promise was: ‘Honour your father and your mother, that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth’.
4 Fathers, don’t over-correct your children or make it difficult for them to obey the commandment. Bring them up with Christian teaching in Christian discipline.
5-8 Slaves, obey your human masters sincerely with a proper sense of respect and responsibility, as service rendered to Christ himself; not with the idea of currying favour with men, but as the servants of Christ conscientiously doing what you believe to be the will of God for you. You may be sure that God will reward a man for good work, irrespectively of whether the man be slave or free.
9 And as for you employers, be as conscientious and responsible towards those who serve you as you expect them to be towards you, neither misusing the power over others that has been put in your hands, nor forgetting that you are responsible yourselves to a heavenly employer who makes no distinction between master and man.
Be forewarned and forearmed in your spiritual conflict
10-18 In conclusion be strong—not in yourselves but in the Lord, in the power of his boundless resource. Put on God’s complete armour so that you can successfully resist all the devil’s methods of attack. For our fight is not against any physical enemy: it is against organisations and powers that are spiritual. We are up against the unseen power that controls this dark world, and spiritual agents from the very headquarters of evil. Therefore you must wear the whole armour of God that you may be able to resist evil in its day of power, and that even when you have fought to a standstill you may still stand your ground. Take your stand then with truth as your belt, righteousness your breastplate, the Gospel of peace firmly on your feet, salvation as your helmet and in your hand the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. Above all be sure you take faith as your shield, for it can quench every burning missile the enemy hurls at you. Pray at all times with every kind of spiritual prayer, keeping alert and persistent as you pray for all Christ’s men and women.
19-20 And pray for me, too, that I may be able to speak freely here to make known the secret of that Gospel for which I am, so to speak, an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may speak out about it as my plain and obvious duty.
21-22 Tychicus, beloved brother and faithful minister, will tell you personally what I am doing and how I am getting on. I am sending him to you bringing this letter for that purpose, so that you will know exactly how we are and may take fresh heart:
23 Peace be to all Christian brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!
24 Grace be with all those who sincerely love our Lord Jesus Christ.
PAUL
Children and parents: servants and masters
6 1-3 Children, the right thing for you to do is to obey your parents as those whom God has set over you. The first commandment to contain a promise was: ‘Honour your father and your mother, that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth’.
4 Fathers, don’t over-correct your children or make it difficult for them to obey the commandment. Bring them up with Christian teaching in Christian discipline.
5-8 Slaves, obey your human masters sincerely with a proper sense of respect and responsibility, as service rendered to Christ himself; not with the idea of currying favour with men, but as the servants of Christ conscientiously doing what you believe to be the will of God for you. You may be sure that God will reward a man for good work, irrespectively of whether the man be slave or free.
9 And as for you employers, be as conscientious and responsible towards those who serve you as you expect them to be towards you, neither misusing the power over others that has been put in your hands, nor forgetting that you are responsible yourselves to a heavenly employer who makes no distinction between master and man.
Be forewarned and forearmed in your spiritual conflict
10-18 In conclusion be strong—not in yourselves but in the Lord, in the power of his boundless resource. Put on God’s complete armour so that you can successfully resist all the devil’s methods of attack. For our fight is not against any physical enemy: it is against organisations and powers that are spiritual. We are up against the unseen power that controls this dark world, and spiritual agents from the very headquarters of evil. Therefore you must wear the whole armour of God that you may be able to resist evil in its day of power, and that even when you have fought to a standstill you may still stand your ground. Take your stand then with truth as your belt, righteousness your breastplate, the Gospel of peace firmly on your feet, salvation as your helmet and in your hand the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. Above all be sure you take faith as your shield, for it can quench every burning missile the enemy hurls at you. Pray at all times with every kind of spiritual prayer, keeping alert and persistent as you pray for all Christ’s men and women.
19-20 And pray for me, too, that I may be able to speak freely here to make known the secret of that Gospel for which I am, so to speak, an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may speak out about it as my plain and obvious duty.
21-22 Tychicus, beloved brother and faithful minister, will tell you personally what I am doing and how I am getting on. I am sending him to you bringing this letter for that purpose, so that you will know exactly how we are and may take fresh heart:
23 Peace be to all Christian brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!
24 Grace be with all those who sincerely love our Lord Jesus Christ.
PAUL
Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, on the earth beneath, or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
Apostasy 101...
It looks like this....
Luke 4:8
‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”
1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, on the earth beneath, or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
Apostasy 101...
It looks like this....
Luke 4:8
‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”
1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
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Brother Steve, I humbly take what you have written to heart and will meditate on it. It is always important to have balancing perspectives, and to sense check at each waypoint on the journey. We are a spiritual house being built up, and a body of many varied and unique parts making the whole. My heart is for the building up of the church (a small role I play) as per Ephesians 4.
Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
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I hope this does not come across as hostile or harsh, but I may be having one of those days, but I feel led. I think it is because of a couple glimpses I got of the news, IDK. Still, for your edification or not... With everyone being teachers and all. I did try to feed a homeless person yesterday and he turned me down. I think the "prisons" I am going to are of a more "spiritual one"..
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means
This is the first warning given WHEN EVER the end time events are laid our. Deception coming our way. Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. Do not be deceived.
1st seal, (the angels hold back the four winds until Gods servants are sealed "in their foreheads" that's knowledge of end time events) that 1st seal is the MOST IMPORTANT information that this end time generation IS NOT BEING TAUGHT.
Even reading the back and forth here it is all about false doctrine, bad teachers, scam artists, THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, the beginning in this age, of the mystery of iniquity (and hard at work since then), things going on since Cain MURDERED Abel. (I paraphrase a lot right there) But that rider on the 1st white horse with the cheap imitation bow, is coming to conquer. And who? Those who "profess", and want to be, and think they truly love the Lord, Christians who KNOW NOTHING about the Word of God except a few nice little stories and "walk in love" along with the rest of the world.
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Those are the ONLY 2 out of the 7 that Jesus approves of.
What do we "see" here??? SATAN. Satan is the message.
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (So we know one thing for sure, Satan is coming to the earth and he is coming to deceive the world. And he is going to deceive the whole world, and we know that is true, except names in the book)
Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. (EXCEPT IGNORANCE)
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Apostasy 101
When Satan comes to deceive the whole world, that means over a billion, (who knows how many) people NOW CALLING themselves Christians will BELIEVE HIM.
In moments, seeing the healing of the deadly wound, the miracles he performs, the flatteries (so convincing that God HAD TO SHORTEN his (Satans) time on earth OR ELSE EVEN GODS ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED. That is how CONVINCING he will be,
THAT IS THE GREAT APOSTASY, and they don't even know it. Not a clue. They believe it is truly Jesus returned. Why?
because they were never taught the truth. They we taught they were going to "be gone", they didn't need to learn. They didn't need to put on the whole gospel armor. They didn't need to know the order of events. They don't have enough OIL, word of God, to know what to do and what not to do.
That is why this forum spends so much time on the salvation issue.
You know who to this day still doesn't drink wine? cause they are loyal and obedient and workers for their father.
The children are being turned to their "fathers". Now that's a PLURAL word with meaning.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...…………………...
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Ok, much nicer.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means
This is the first warning given WHEN EVER the end time events are laid our. Deception coming our way. Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. Do not be deceived.
1st seal, (the angels hold back the four winds until Gods servants are sealed "in their foreheads" that's knowledge of end time events) that 1st seal is the MOST IMPORTANT information that this end time generation IS NOT BEING TAUGHT.
Even reading the back and forth here it is all about false doctrine, bad teachers, scam artists, THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, the beginning in this age, of the mystery of iniquity (and hard at work since then), things going on since Cain MURDERED Abel. (I paraphrase a lot right there) But that rider on the 1st white horse with the cheap imitation bow, is coming to conquer. And who? Those who "profess", and want to be, and think they truly love the Lord, Christians who KNOW NOTHING about the Word of God except a few nice little stories and "walk in love" along with the rest of the world.
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Those are the ONLY 2 out of the 7 that Jesus approves of.
What do we "see" here??? SATAN. Satan is the message.
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (So we know one thing for sure, Satan is coming to the earth and he is coming to deceive the world. And he is going to deceive the whole world, and we know that is true, except names in the book)
Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. (EXCEPT IGNORANCE)
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Apostasy 101
When Satan comes to deceive the whole world, that means over a billion, (who knows how many) people NOW CALLING themselves Christians will BELIEVE HIM.
In moments, seeing the healing of the deadly wound, the miracles he performs, the flatteries (so convincing that God HAD TO SHORTEN his (Satans) time on earth OR ELSE EVEN GODS ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED. That is how CONVINCING he will be,
THAT IS THE GREAT APOSTASY, and they don't even know it. Not a clue. They believe it is truly Jesus returned. Why?
because they were never taught the truth. They we taught they were going to "be gone", they didn't need to learn. They didn't need to put on the whole gospel armor. They didn't need to know the order of events. They don't have enough OIL, word of God, to know what to do and what not to do.
That is why this forum spends so much time on the salvation issue.
You know who to this day still doesn't drink wine? cause they are loyal and obedient and workers for their father.
The children are being turned to their "fathers". Now that's a PLURAL word with meaning.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...…………………...
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Ok, much nicer.
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translation: "church of england archbishop is a sod0*mite supporter and is not a christian but a wolf trying to infiltrate christian circles by conforming it toworld. the jury has confirmed that church of england and united methodist church are no longer christian organizations but dens of iniquity and you are better off going to secular knitting circle than those churches"
thats what the article meant to say.
thats what the article meant to say.
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Its not possible to draw back from a true faith.
Its only possible to draw back from an intellectual faith.
Just like its not possible to un-know a fact. Once you know it, that's it.
But if its just some intellectual theory that you're not sure about and haven't tested then, of course, you could walk away from that.
Why is Paul so confident that "we" are not of those who draw back? Because he knows that once a person makes their faith sure they can't un-know what Christ has done for them. And what He continues to do for those who have faith in Him.
Could YOU just forget what Christ has done for you? It is a preposterous idea to me.
Its only possible to draw back from an intellectual faith.
Just like its not possible to un-know a fact. Once you know it, that's it.
But if its just some intellectual theory that you're not sure about and haven't tested then, of course, you could walk away from that.
Why is Paul so confident that "we" are not of those who draw back? Because he knows that once a person makes their faith sure they can't un-know what Christ has done for them. And what He continues to do for those who have faith in Him.
Could YOU just forget what Christ has done for you? It is a preposterous idea to me.
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Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 
I have just posted on another thread where debaters tried to apply a passage of scripture as applying to Corporate Israel where it can be clearly seen that this applies to individuals as well. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6016#post-4122960
Now we have a post in Romans 11 which applies to Corporate Israel and not individuals.
Let's put all of the surrounding verses so that we see the full context.
Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Post Nr 10 https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/#post-4121621
Grandpa, I'm going by what is written in the scriptures.
1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
It is possible to once again be deceived. Hence all the warnings to the church about this. Take the above scripture at face value.
Grandpa, I'm going by what is written in the scriptures.
1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
It is possible to once again be deceived. Hence all the warnings to the church about this. Take the above scripture at face value.