"Antichrist": Broad Deception By Narrow Definition

[Phoneman-777]

Do you take medication for your condition?

Down here in the dirty dirty South, us Cajuns don't need meds...we got Voodoo, MoJo, and if dat don't work, we just load up on spicy okra gumbo and hot toddies

 

[kinda]

Joking. He knows that I am. But thanks for pointing it out. If I was serious I would deserve the rebuke.

Sorry, it's hard to tell humor on a message board sometimes.

Hey Kinda,

We'll see! Looking forward to seeing the King of Kings (Yeshua/Jesus); even if we have to go through tribulation and death. Our bodies are temporary anyway and there's better things to come.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Amen

 

[Phoneman-777]

Can you explain this? I think what you are saying is that, you don't believe like an imposter christ will come.

Satan is going to impersonate Christ before He comes, of course. The Antichrist is not a person, but a "kingdom", according to Daniel and Revelation. The Protestant Reformers taught "Protestant Historicism" which says prophecy parallels history, as opposed to Jesuit Futurism which says when Christ was crucified, somebody hit "pause" on the prophetic DVD player, and the show won't resume until the "secret rapture" which marks the countdown of the last seven years of trib, the rise of Antichrist, etc., etc., etc. Historicism agrees with Daniel and Revelation which says the Antichrist, Papal Rome, arose after the fall of the fourth beast, Pagan Rome.

Much Scripture evidence to support Protestant Historicism while at the same time annihilating Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism.

 

[kinda]

Satan is going to impersonate Christ before He comes, of course. The Antichrist is not a person, but a "kingdom", according to Daniel and Revelation. The Protestant Reformers taught "Protestant Historicism" which says prophecy parallels history, as opposed to Jesuit Futurism which says when Christ was crucified, somebody hit "pause" on the prophetic DVD player, and the show won't resume until the "secret rapture" which marks the countdown of the last seven years of trib, the rise of Antichrist, etc., etc., etc. Historicism agrees with Daniel and Revelation which says the Antichrist, Papal Rome, arose after the fall of the fourth beast, Pagan Rome.

Much Scripture evidence to support Protestant Historicism while at the same time annihilating Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism.

I used to goto Seventh Day Adventist Church and they are pretty dogmatic that the pope is the anti-christ and the Sunday Sabbath is the mark of the beast. Don't know if this is true, but thought it sort goes in line with what you are saying.

Some new terms to learn for sure.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Didn't Luther think that he was in the Laodecaen age of the church? This is one of the problems with Historicism, each generation has to move the goal posts and reapply all the church ages. Anyone's interpretation is as good as another's and none have authority.

Wait, since when is it a bad thing to believe the return of Christ is imminent? Keeps us on our toes. Historicism has never moved any goal posts because there are no Historicist goal posts, only speculation as to whether land will come into view soon as we sail the Gospel sea.

Even the Early Church Fathers believed that when Pagan Rome fell, the Antichrist would arise and commence wage a relatively short war before Jesus would come...what's important is not there speculation about the coming of Jesus, which the Bible does not nail down, but their correct understanding of when the Antichrist would arise, which the Bible most certainly nails down.

As for Jesuit Futurism, its only support is found in what the intrepid Dr. Martin Luther calls "the Roman dunghill of decretals".

 

[Phoneman-777]

I used to goto Seventh Day Adventist Church and they are pretty dogmatic that the pope is the anti-christ and the Sunday Sabbath is the mark of the beast. Don't know if this is true, but thought it sort goes in line with what you are saying.

Some new terms to learn for sure.

Just for interest's sake, SDAs teach the "office of the Papacy" is the Antichrist...the popes just happen to be the leaders of it.

 

[kinda]

Just for interest's sake, SDAs teach the "office of the Papacy" is the Antichrist...the popes just happen to be the leaders of it.

Alright. Ladies and gentleman we have a scholar. I look forward to reading your posts. How do you know so much about the SDA's Church?

 

[Scribe]

Down here in the dirty dirty South, us Cajuns don't need meds...we got Voodoo, MoJo, and if dat don't work, we just load up on spicy okra gumbo and hot toddies

I do miss the food. When I graduate I might plant a church in New Orleans, French Quarter. I haven't heard from God yet, but that is one place I have seen a need. I was once homeless there, sleeping down by the rocks on the bank of the Mississippi by night drowning myself in alcohol by day. I slept on park benches and in the bushes of dog parks and hung out with the Tarot Card readers chicken bone readers in Jackson Square. Do they still call it Jackson Square or has that name been changed by the protesters?

 

[kinda]

I do miss the food. When I graduate I might plant a church in New Orleans, French Quarter. I haven't heard from God yet, but that is one place I have seen a need. I was once homeless there, sleeping down by the rocks on the bank of the Mississippi by night drowning myself in alcohol by day. I slept on park benches and in the bushes of dog parks and hung out with the Tarot Card readers chicken bone readers in Jackson Square. Do they still call it Jackson Square or has that name been changed by the protesters?

Sounds horrible. How did you manage to get off the streets? Did the mosquitoes get you at night?

 

[Scribe]

Wait, since when is it a bad thing to believe the return of Christ is imminent? Keeps us on our toes. Historicism has never moved any goal posts because there are no Historicist goal posts, only speculation as to whether land will come into view soon as we sail the Gospel sea.

Even the Early Church Fathers believed that when Pagan Rome fell, the Antichrist would arise and commence wage a relatively short war before Jesus would come...what's important is not there speculation about the coming of Jesus, which the Bible does not nail down, but their correct understanding of when the Antichrist would arise, which the Bible most certainly nails down.

As for Jesuit Futurism, its only support is found in what the intrepid Dr. Martin Luther calls "the Roman dunghill of decretals".

Sounds horrible. How did you manage to get off the streets? Did the mosquitoes get you at night?

I was too drunk to notice the mosquitos, they probably got drunk too.

I went to New York Adult and Teen Challenge ministry and was delivered from alcoholism and tobacco by the power of the Blood of Jesus Christ and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The day I walked into that ministry I could feel the chains falling off of me and hitting the floor. I knew that Jesus would deliver me and yet I needed to take the first step in the right direction to get the help I needed to suffer through the withdrawals and the initial suffering that I would go through as I suffered in the flesh to cease from sin. When I did the Grace of God came upon me to strengthen, establish, and settle me. I was filled with the Holy Spirit and called to preach and pastor and a door was opened for me enroll in bible college and full time ministry intern position. I was literally translated out of the kingdom darkness into the kingdom of his dear son and though I never really wanted to go back to New Orleans, I may return someday with a group of evangelists to minister to the hopeless people who are drowning in alcohol like I was. Maybe I can get one of them to go to Adult and Teen Challenge. The ministry has had a 76% to 85% success rate since 1958, depending on the studies that have been done. The definition of success in this context is that of being free of addictions 10 years after graduation.

 

[kinda]

I was too drunk to notice the mosquitos, they probably got drunk too.

I went to New York Adult and Teen Challenge ministry and was delivered from alcoholism and tobacco by the power of the Blood of Jesus Christ and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The day I walked into that ministry I could feel the chains falling off of me and hitting the floor. I knew that Jesus would deliver me and yet I needed to take the first step in the right direction to get the help I needed to suffer through the withdrawals and the initial suffering that I would go through as I suffered in the flesh to cease from sin. When I did the Grace of God came upon me to strengthen, establish, and settle me. I was filled with the Holy Spirit and called to preach and pastor and a door was opened for me enroll in bible college and full time ministry intern position. I was literally translated out of the kingdom darkness into the kingdom of his dear son and though I never really wanted to go back to New Orleans, I may return someday with a group of evangelists to minister to the hopeless people who are drowning in alcohol like I was. Maybe I can get one of them to go to Adult and Teen Challenge. The ministry has had a 76% to 85% success rate since 1958, depending on the studies that have been done. The definition of success in this context is that of being free of addictions 10 years after graduation.

That's pretty awesome! Good story, thanks for sharing.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey Ahwatukee,

I totally agree with 2 Timothy 2:4, which is the very reason why I keep challenging the pre-trib rapture teaching. There is no specific verse saying that the Body of Christ will be taken up before the Great Tribulation. Not only that, but hopping around in scripture in hopes of proving it. There's a difference when we actually read scripture for Truth and as a lens to expound on things to come, instead of reading through the lens of false doctrines into scripture. Context!

It doesn't make sense to think that Matthew 24 was written to just the Jews. Not only that, but Paul warned the "Gentile" church/congregation (Thessalonians) about the "Falling Away" and the "Son of Perdition." Why go through the trouble of warning them? The real church started with Jesus and the Apostles going out to share the Good News, through the Great Commission. Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles, and there was ministry to Israel. Still the same message!

Part I

Good day, TruthSeeker!

Paul wasn't warning the Thessalonians, he was comforting them. There were some there who were teaching that the Day of the Lord had already come, which is the time of God's wrath. The Thessalonians were writing to Paul because if the Day of the Lord had truly come, then they were concerned as to why they hadn't been caught up to meet the Lord in the air according to what Paul taught them. Paul comforts them by telling them that the Day of the Lord (the time of God's wrath) will not come until the apostasy takes place and the man of lawlessness is revealed. The comfort is that, the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, will take place prior to the Day of the Lord.

It doesn't make sense to make a distinction between the body of believers when scripture clearly said that there is none. We are either of the Body of Christ, or not.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13
(12) For just as the body is one but has many parts; and all the parts of the body, though many, constitute one body; so it is with the Messiah.
(13) For it was by one Spirit that we were all immersed into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free; and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

I simply don't agree that a certain group of believers will get a hall pass out of here through escapism.

What Paul is speaking about above, is that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile believers in Christ which make up the church. However, God is going to deal with the unbelieving nation of Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens that was decree upon them in Daniel 9:24. The unbelieving nation of Israel is the woman of Revelation 12 who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, which are the same symbols used in Gen.37:9-10 which represent Jacob, his wife and his sons. After the abomination has been set up, She/Israel will flee out into the wilderness--which is the desolation-and will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The church, which again is made up of both Jew and Gentiles, is a separate entity from the unbelieving nation of Israel, both having different end-time programs.

When the resurrection takes place, all of those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church--both Jew and Gentile believers-- will resurrect and be caught up. Immediately after that, those who are still alive in Christ (both Jew and Gentile) will be changed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, where the whole group meets the Lord in the air. Then, as the Lord promised, He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as described in John 14:1-3. This is why hopping is necessary, because this is not mentioned anywhere else. Although, in another scripture the Lord did say to His disciples and all believers "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later." (John 13:36)

It is the unbelieving nation of Israel that God is going to deal with and who is in view in Matt.24 and Rev.12.

It's a slap in the face for those that are undergoing persecution and death for Jesus. I don't think the teaching of pre-trib would hold up in the circumstances that they were in... The Word warned us of the spirit of antichrist, many antichrists, and the antichrist (1 John 2:14; 18; 4:3). History proves this.

I have posted in response to this issue many, many times. The persecution that the apostles and the first century church, as well as all believers throughout the millennia till now, is because of their faith. You and others are not making a distinction between the common persecutions and tribulations which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. the coming unprecedented wrath of God. You're not understanding that the coming wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as being a specific period when God is going to be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world. This period of wrath, also known as 'the Day of the Lord' must take place prior to and continues right up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age which is not meant for the church. Therefore, it will be no "slap in the face for all who have died in Christ" because they suffered because of their faith and not the wrath of God. It is important for you and others to distinguish between the two.

Trials and persecution against believers in Christ will continue right up until the resurrection, where at which time the dead and living in Christ will be gathered. After that, the Day of the Lord will begin, the time of God's wrath, which will be initiated by the opening of the first seal, which is performed by the Lamb, Jesus Christ. He is therefore responsible for the fourth of the earths population being killed as a result of the opening of the 4th seal, which would be approx. 2 billion people, as well as the rest of the fatalities resulting from the trumpets and bowl judgments.


(Continued)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey Ahwatukee,

Believing in the pre-trib is deceiving in the sense that we aren't preparing ourselves. What's better, to be prepared, or not? What's more dangerous?

Once again I wouldn't want the Body of Christ to be caught with their pants down.

Part II

Those who believe that the Lord will keep His promise by gathering His church before His wrath are always ready and watching. Our faith should not be based on the timing of the gathering of the church, but in Christ who shed His blood for us. So that even if we are faced with persecution and death, we should keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. Just for the sake of the argument, if I was here on the earth and witnessed a political leader establish a seven year contract with Israel, I would know that the first seal was opened. And seeing that, I would then know that the second seal is coming next where the rider on the red horse takes peace from the earth so that men kill one another. Realizing that God's wrath had begun, I would then prepare my body and spirit to keep my testimony for Jesus and the word of God. To be clear, if I saw these events of God's wrath taking place, I certainly would not abandon my faith because I wasn't gathered prior to them happening. If anything seeing those events taking place would reinforce my faith in God's word. Thank God that He is not going to put His church through His wrath.

The key here is understanding that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Yes, believers have and will continue to go through trials and tribulations because of our faith. But NO! Believers will not go through God's coming wrath, because it has already been satisfied by Christ. There is a big difference and purpose between the two. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

Hopping around in scripture, as you call it, is necessary in demonstrating that the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath. And also because the scriptural information on any given Biblical topic is not all in one place. An example of this would be Daniel supporting the information regarding the beast in Revelation. I'd have to 'hop over' to Daniel to read other information regarding the beast mentioned in Revelation in order to get the complete picture.

There are many proofs of why the gathering of the church must and will take place prior to God's wrath which begins at the opening of the 1st seal. Regarding this, I will reiterate in regards to the underlying principle of why the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath, said principle being that Jesus already took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, since in the eyes of God it has been satisfied, then His wrath no longer rests upon those who have faith in Christ. It is a legal precedent/rule.

If something has been satisfied, then it is no longer required. As an example, the word of God says "unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins." Going back to that legal precedent, since Christ already satisfied the requirement of shed blood, then it is no longer required by the believer. Another example would be "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Therefore, since Christ already satisfied the wages/reward for sin, then the legal precedent has been satisfied so that the believer no longer owes the debt of death because of sin, because Christ already satisfied it on our behalf by dying in our place.

Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.

(Revelation 20:4)

As I continue to make known to you, the group who John sees resurrecting in the scripture above, which takes place after the Lord returns to the earth, is that great company of white robed saints which no man can count, also known as the great tribulation saints revealed in Rev.7:9-17. This group is not the church, but will be those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. These are those written of in Rev.13:5-7, who the beast is given authority over to make war against and conquer for 42 months, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

The first resurrection has phases or stages to it:

* Jesus the first-fruits

* The church at the Lord's appearing in the air

* The male child - a collective name representing the 144,000

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints

All of the above take part in the first resurrection. 'First' does not mean 'only' but is in opposition to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years. For those who take part in that resurrection, the second death has power over them.

Do you believe Jesus came in the flesh and is the Son of God?

If I did not believe this, I would have no business teaching all of the above or on any other Biblical topic. Jesus' coming in the flesh, is in reference to His existing as God prior to His appearing in the flesh. As the Lord said in His prayer, "And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Jesus' oneness with the Father as God can also be seen in Genesis where it is written "Let [us] make man in [our] image after [our] likeness. And "Let [us] go down and confound their language." Jesus as God prior to His appearing in the flesh can also be seen regarding Sodom and Gomorrah where it is written "Then [the LORD] rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah—from [the LORD] out of the heavens. And as king David said, "The Lord said to my Lord, 'sit here at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

"As we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our [great God and Savior Jesus Christ].

Jesus was and is God!

I pray that God would truly give you understanding about these issues. The Lord is not going to first put His bride through His wrath and then come to take her back to the Father's house.

 

[tanakh]

Whatever position we take scripture is clear that being right with God is the vital issue we should be concerned about above anything else. We should take each day at a time not spend our lives fretting about these things. None of us know whether the present day will be our last.

 

[GaryA]

Historicism agrees with Daniel and Revelation which says the Antichrist, Papal Rome, arose after the fall of the fourth beast, Pagan Rome.

I am in agreement with this statement. It illustrates the transformation of the Roman 'State' into the Roman 'Church'. When Rome "fell", it did not actually "die" - it merely "changed form"...

Papal Rome was Pagan Rome "reborn" (an evil rebirth).

 

[1christian1]

I am in agreement with this statement. It illustrates the transformation of the Roman 'State' into the Roman 'Church'. When Rome "fell", it did not actually "die" - it merely "changed form"...

Papal Rome was Pagan Rome "reborn" (an evil rebirth).

Hey Gary,
What is the difference between "Born Again" and " reborn"?

 

[GaryA]

Hey Gary,
What is the difference between "Born Again" and " reborn"?

In this case, it is the difference between being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and something evil changing form into something even more evil.

Keep in mind that I am referring to the "core essence" of:

Roman Empire
Holy Roman Empire
Roman Catholic Church

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey Gary,
What is the difference between "Born Again" and " reborn"?

Only in Gary's world could they mean something different.

 

[GaryA]

Only in Gary's world could they mean something different.

So - you wish to agree with 1christian1's insinuated suggestion that "all in the RCC are born-again"...?

 

[GaryA]

So - you wish to agree with 1christian1's insinuated suggestion that "all in the RCC are born-again"...?

Or, perhaps the converse?

In any case, he was "mixing up" the idea associated with salvation with something altogether different.

I was pointing that out...