Another look at John 10.

[posthuman]

Some believe they can lose Salvation. Walk away.

That's not Salvation. That's conditional reprieve. Man's doctrine. Not God's.

My trail is Happy. Lit by the light of God who keeps his word.

Good luck on your path.

yes

salvation that can be lost isn't salvation at all; it's damnation pretending to be salvation, just waiting to be revealed as damnation.

eternal life that isn't eternal is not eternal life at all; it's disguised death waiting to be revealed as death.

God is able to save to the uttermost, and He is faithful: salvation is His work, not mine.

i will trust Him.

 

[mailmandan]

The scripture assures us of salvation and all of those scriptures you quote that assure us of God’s salvation are only for those who “abide” in Him and his doctrine.

Once again, abiding in Christ is the mark of a genuine believer. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

You didn’t explain why God is telling Christian’s to abide in Him or they don’t have God in 2 John 9.

I already explained there are two camps: 1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ and do not have God" (never did) and 2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son."

Or why Paul says you can fall from Grace in Gal. 5:4.

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Paul did not say these Galatians lost their salvation and it's all over for them.

Why did Jesus tell the church (Christians) at Ephesus to “remember from where you have “FALLEN” and repent”? Tell us from WHERE did they fall? You won’t tell us but I will. They were Christian’s who “FELL” from their SAVED state or condition to an UNSAVED state or condition. This is true or why would Jesus tell them to repent? And why do Christian’s need to repent at all if they are going to be saved regardless of whether they repent or not?

That's your eisegesis. In regard to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent, to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for the depth of love it once had for the Lord. So what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness, which apparently it did. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is now dominated by Islam.

OSAs constantly contradicts God’s word, and is impossible in light of what God says.

OSAS contradicts your interpretation of God's word, but not God's word itself. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever? Of those given to Jesus by the Father, how many will He cast out and how many will He lose? (John 6:37-39) How many of Jesus' sheep will be snatched from His hand and not receive eternal life? (John 10:27-29) Of those who are predestined, called and justified, how many of them will not be glorified? (Romans 8:30) Of those who are sanctified in Jesus Christ, how long does the Lord confirm them? (1 Corinthians 1:8) How long will they be sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ and perfected? (Hebrews 10:10,14) Of those who believe the gospel and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, how long are they sealed? (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) What does the word guarantee mean? (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14)

Instead of just quoting more scripture that tell us the believers in Christ who “abide” in him are secure—which we all believe—how about explaining Rev. 2:5, Gal.5;4, 1 Cor. 10:12, and 2 Peter 3:17.

I already covered Revelation 2:5 and Galatians 5:4. In regard to 1 Corinthians 10:12, you think fall means lose salvation? In Psalm 37:28, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. In regard to 2 Peter 3:17, Peter writes, "lose your own stability." This phrase is also translated as "fall from your secure position," or "fall from your own steadfastness." The Greek phrase uses the word ekpesēte, which literally means, "to fall," (see Psalm 37:28) but this phrase is not indicative of losing salvation. The potential loss Peter has in mind is not that of eternal damnation, if we allow ourselves to be misled by false teachers. Peter, has written in 1 Peter 1:4-5 that a Christian's place in eternity is shielded by God's power and cannot be lost.

I’d like to know how you explain those—and at least about 20 more such scriptures that plainly teach a child of God CAN be lost if they leave Christ ( do not abide in Him).

I have explained multiple verses to you already and will be more than happy to explain more verses to you. I have explained these verses to numerous Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists over the years as well.

Jesus told parables that illustrate this plainly in the story of the lost sheep and the lost (prodigal) son. Deal with the real issue here and stop just telling how those who are in God’s fold are saved. We all know that.

I already covered the prodigal son with you in post #279 from the thread below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...u-can-get-unsaved.216824/page-14#post-5392662

Do you actually read my responses or just skim over them?

 

[mailmandan]

Only God knows who among his followers are genuine or not. We are not to assume the worse of people (love thinks no evil -1Cor. 13:5) and I surely don’t believe God expects us to know that he is only talking about people who are not genuine Christian’s. How odd. There is no hint whatsoever in this chapter that he is addressing hypocrites! You are grabbing at straws and making up something that is not in the context. But then, this doctrine has no better explanation to offer.

Only God does infallibly know the hearts of men and God also knows there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians/genuine believers and make believers. You seem to be naive about the latter and assume that ALL "professing" Christians must be genuine Christians. You have folks who truly believe the gospel and are saved and those who believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF. In Hebrews 10:39, we also see those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. I'll be more than happy to discuss Hebrews 10:26 with you later. What about these folks in 1 John 2:19 who went out from us but were not of us?

 

[mailmandan]

Does it surprise you there are Christians who try to insist they're not truly secure in Christ?

No, it doesn't surprise me, but I'm more concerned with reaching "nominal" Christians with the gospel who have no assurance of salvation.

 

[homwardbound]

The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.

Free choice given to all, not a few, all.
Therefore anyone can change their mind and leave and not be in by free choice after being in, that is truth, otherwise free choice then is not true.
We then are all puppets, I think not!

tell me, since one sees the whole truth God loves them unconditionally, God never punishes you over things done wrong still, as people do still, even self. God continues in Faith to you, knowing you will see this friendship given you by Son the risen one For you, to be risen presently, daily in continued belief to this done work for you to be new presently, daily, one leaves sin behind them not ever having to be aware of that again.
Wow, woe is me, seeing the hot fire coals of the Holy Fire touch me, you and all others too and be declared not guilty, by God's love for us all.
Why would I, you or any one else ever leave, seeing Jeremiah 29:11 as true for us all to respond to in thanksgiving and praise to this amazing grace given us?
Father with Son as Won knows best, even if in troubles presently to execute trust to Father still, in spite of the trouble(s) as if already won thank you

 

[Beckworth]

It's doing something that makes it not grace any longer. It's not that we do nothing. We do. We seek for His kingdom and His righteousness. We seek to walk in and be filled with the Spirit. But we don't seek to attain the approval of God with our effort, because our approval has already been attained by Christ.
Also, you are only accepted of God in and through Christ. You can't add to that. How will you present yourself more acceptably to God than in Christ?

What you call “seeking the approval of God” we call “obedience.” Jesus specifically said, “You are my friends—IF—you do as I say.” All I have to do to get the “approval”” of God is obey Him. James 1:22-25 tells us to be “Doers” of His word, to continue in his Law (commandments) and be a “doer of the WORK!” Not just a “hearer.” Christian’s who are seeking salvation by saying “we don’t have to do anything—Christ has done it all,” “once we are saved, we can never be lost,” have subscribed to the lies of Satan. A “lazy, do nothing religion is exactly what Satan knows will appeal to the most people. It is a false security. Add to that, the lie that “work” in religion is a “bad” word and can never be done or it’s not grace and you have the complete false doctrine that appeals to the most people and will cause you to lose your soul. Wake up! Open your eyes. Study the Bible for yourself! Really see what God says.

 

[Beckworth]

Does it surprise you there are Christians who try to insist they're not truly secure in Christ?

we all know and believe that the Christian who is staying in the fold of Christ, is following him faithfully, and doing all the right things —is secure in their salvation. That is not what is being debated here. The scriptures you all are quoting are always describing the “faithful” Christian. That doesn’t prove anything except if you remain faithful to Christ you will be “sealed”, and saved. Where is your scripture that shows a Christian who has LEFT the fold of Christ, (like the lost lamb in Luke 15) will be saved? That is the “missing link” that none of you OSAs people have and cannot produce, because it is not in God’s word; besides that, Everything in His word teaches that if a Christian leaves the faith he cannot be saved. That’s why there are so many scriptures in the Bible that encourage “faithfulness.” That’s why Rev. 2:10 says “be faithful unto death.”

Please stop wasting our time throwing at us scriptures that only teach the security of the faithful believers. We need to see just one verse that shows a Christian can be UNFAITHFUL to Christ and still be saved. Or even a parable ( the prodigal son,) or just one example ( Simon the sorcerer). If you can’t produce a verse that clearly shows a Christian has left Christ but is still going to be saved, then you need to reconsider your doctrine. Your soul’s salvation depends on it, because 2 John 9 says if you don’t abide in the doctrine of Christ, you don’t have God.

Also. Not one of you has even attempted to explain any of the 20-30 scriptures that have been quoted on this site where God talks about Christian’s “falling” from grace. Are you just going to continue to ignore those? All you can do is cite another scripture that shows his believers are going to be saved; OF COURSE THEY ARE. Tell us something we don’t know.

 

[Beckworth]

Does that mean the good shepherd will not come to the rescue of the lost sheep until the lost sheep repents?

Is that what you get from that story? Read for yourself. Had the lost sheep already repented before the Good shepherd sought him? Maybe, because he was lost and in trouble. We can’t tell from the information given, when the sheep repented. It only says he did. Does this story in any way hint, or imply that the shepherd didn’t care about the lost sheep unless he’s repented? I see a shepherd concerned about one of his own. He had no way of knowing (in the story) whether the lamb was sorry or not. But these things are not as important as the question of whether this story told by Jesus is showing the possibility of apostasy. Be honest with yourself—your soul’s salvation depends on it.

 

[Beckworth]

Apostasy.

A human fault.
God does not renounce his seal on those who's name he elected to his free irrevocable gift of grace before the foundation of this world.

Names written in the Lambs Book of Eternal Life before the foundation of the world does not bear the marks of White-Out.to imply God abandons his Elect is to stop believing God is Sovereign.

That, is Apostasy.

Please consider and read some more.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/can-i-be-blotted-from-the-book-of-life#:~:text=John does not say: If,of the book of life.”

You obviously have not read Exodus 32:33 GOD says, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will BLOT HIM OUT OF MY BOOK.” Even Moses knew God could do that. Verse 32. Deuteronomy 29:20-21-“the Lord would BLOT OUT his name from under heaven.” Revelation 3:5 Jesus says if they are faithful, I will not blot out their name from the book of life. What is the logical conclusion of the opposite of this verse? If they ( the church) are not faithful, I WILL BLOT OUT THEIR NANES FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE. Revelation 22:19-“ God shall take away his part from the book of life. Jesus speaking. You still think there is no “white out” in God’s book? you do err not knowing the scriptures. Study the Bible for yourself; don’t listen to men.

 

[Beckworth]

Amen! 2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

it surprise you there are Christians who try to insist they're not truly secure in Christ?

 

[Beckworth]

Amen! 2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

All of the scriptures you are posting do nothing but show that faithful believers are secure in their salvation. NoT ONE scripture that shows an “unfaithful” , “wayward” Christian who has left the fold of God and is living in sin — like the prodigal son— is saved in that condition. You can’t show us any that actually teach what you are saying. We all know, believe and accept the fact that the “faithful” Christian is going to be saved. Show us a verse that says or shows an “UNFAITHFUL” Christian is going to be saved even if he doesn’t repent—like the lost lamb in Luke 15. You are not proving your point by just showing us scriptures of faithful Christians being saved, sealed and rewarded. Have any of you even addressed the multitude of scripture that teach a saved persons can be lost—like Gal. 5:4, 2Peter 3:17, Hebrews 6;4-6, 1 Cor. 10:12, Revelation 2:5, Hebrew 3:12.? No not one of you has attempted to explain what those verses mean. Except maybe to say that “they were never saved in the first place.” A fact that you as mere men cannot possibly know. That makes your premise based on an ASSUMPTION on your part. Not proof at all.

 

[mailmandan]

All of the scriptures you are posting do nothing but show that faithful believers are secure in their salvation. NoT ONE scripture that shows an “unfaithful” , “wayward” Christian who has left the fold of God and is living in sin — like the prodigal son— is saved in that condition. You can’t show us any that actually teach what you are saying. We all know, believe and accept the fact that the “faithful” Christian is going to be saved. Show us a verse that says or shows an “UNFAITHFUL” Christian is going to be saved even if he doesn’t repent—like the lost lamb in Luke 15. You are not proving your point by just showing us scriptures of faithful Christians being saved, sealed and rewarded. Have any of you even addressed the multitude of scripture that teach a saved persons can be lost—like Gal. 5:4, 2Peter 3:17, Hebrews 6;4-6, 1 Cor. 10:12, Revelation 2:5, Hebrew 3:12.? No not one of you has attempted to explain what those verses mean. Except maybe to say that “they were never saved in the first place.” A fact that you as mere men cannot possibly know. That makes your premise based on an ASSUMPTION on your part. Not proof at all.

I already showed you using scripture that (genuine) believers are secure in their salvation, but sadly, you just don't seem to have eyes to see or ears to hear. I already covered Luke 15, Galatians 5:4, 2 Peter 3:17, Hebrews 6;4-6, 1 Corinthians 10:12 and Revelation 2:5. Not sure if I already covered Hebrews 3:12 with you, so I will cover it now. How about a little context. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[GWH]

I'm confused: Are "you" folks (B & mailman) agreeing or disagreeing whether a Christian is free to repudiate his saving faith?

 

[mailmandan]

You obviously have not read Exodus 32:33 GOD says, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will BLOT HIM OUT OF MY BOOK.” Even Moses knew God could do that. Verse 32. Deuteronomy 29:20-21-“the Lord would BLOT OUT his name from under heaven.” Revelation 3:5 Jesus says if they are faithful, I will not blot out their name from the book of life. What is the logical conclusion of the opposite of this verse? If they ( the church) are not faithful, I WILL BLOT OUT THEIR NANES FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE. Revelation 22:19-“ God shall take away his part from the book of life. Jesus speaking. You still think there is no “white out” in God’s book? you do err not knowing the scriptures. Study the Bible for yourself; don’t listen to men.

There are three ways the book of life is referred to in the Bible. The book of the living (Psalm 69:28), the book of life (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 20:12, 15), and the lamb’s book of Life (Revelation 13:8; 21:27). There are those who hold the view that the first two phrases refer to a book which contains the names of every person who has physical life upon the earth and the third phrase, the Lamb’s Book of Life, refers to a book which contains the names of every person who has eternal life in Jesus Christ.

The alternative view is that there is only one book of life and when unbelievers die, their names are removed from the book of life. Revelation 13:8 indicates that names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. In Psalm 69:28, we read - May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous. In Revelation 20:12-15, we read that books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life, and anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

What is the Book of Life and the Book of the Living? | NeverThirsty
Is it possible for a person’s name to be erased from the Book of Life? | GotQuestions.org

Now in regard to Revelation 3:5 - "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Believer/Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? Believers are overcomers in Christ and not in themselves. Certain folks read Revelation 3:5 as if God’s pen is poised and ready to strike out the name of any Christian who does not overcome every possible struggle in life that there is to overcome. They read into it like this: "If you don't overcome every struggle in life and win the victory based on the merits of your performance, (some even promote sinless perfection) then you’re going to lose your salvation! But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm confused: Are "you" folks (B & mailman) agreeing or disagreeing whether a Christian is free to repudiate his saving faith?

Even though believers have free will I don't believe that a genuine born-again Christian would ever repudiate their saving faith and lose salvation. I believe that God's saints are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28) and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14) In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Even though believers have free will I don't believe that a genuine born-again Christian would ever repudiate their saving faith and lose salvation.

Could they?

 

[mailmandan]

Could they?

If they could it would be unfathomable for me to understand why they would.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If they could it would be unfathomable for me to understand why they would.

So you don't know if it's possible, correct?

 

[mailmandan]

So you don't know if it's possible, correct?

Well, it's possible for me to push my wife into a volcano, but would I? (hyperbole) So how possible is it if I know that I would never do that?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Well, it's possible for me to push my wife into a volcano, but would I? (hyperbole) So how possible is it if I know that I would never do that?

It's possible because you have no control over the future and have no ability to know what you will become