Another look at John 10.

[GWH]

No,we can't

Scripture says we can:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

 

[mailmandan]

The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand) His sheep have eternal security. In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them (Luke 15:2) while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a believer lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again. I just don't understand your obsession with trying to prove that children of God can lose their salvation. That seems to be an obsession with many folks who teach salvation by works.

 

[mailmandan]

If a Christian can't be lost, why did Christ say he would tell many who professed him, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity". Or Paul say that if we deny him he will deny us. Denial goes beyond verbal disavowment into the works we do that reveal who we actually follow:

These many people in Matthew 7:22 may have simply "professed" Jesus, yet Jesus never knew them (vs. 23) which means they were never saved. From verse 22 we can see that they were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

In regard to denying Jesus, in Matthew 10:32-33 for example, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him everywhere they went. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him. (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6)

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Jesus (as was typically the case with the Pharisees and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23 but lack saving faith in Jesus) will be denied by Jesus before the Father.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:15-16

Titus 1:15 - To the pure all things are pure, (in contrast with) but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. This is descriptive of unbelievers. No loss of salvation here.

 

[mailmandan]

That's the goal. Justification (what people mistakenly call salvation) is a one-time thing; salvation is a life-long process of abiding in our sanctification.

That sounds more like type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door.

There are 3 tenses to salvation.
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorfication)

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present, which is the mark of a genuine believer. This is not something that only elite saints do.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Judas Iscariot is a good example of one who did not abide and in John 13:10-11, we get to the heart of the matter of why he did not abide. He was unclean, unlike the 11 remaining disciples who were clean. Jesus also referred to Judas as a devil in John 6:70.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16

Believers are not passive in continuing in sound doctrine, but it's not merely in our own power that we continue. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through continuing in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out of the well, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope and allowing that person to pull you out of the well, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

 

[mailmandan]

God's seal keeps us saved. We don't work to keep that. It was a free irrevocable gift.

Amen! 2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[Beckworth]

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand) His sheep have eternal security. In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them (Luke 15:2) while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a believer lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again. I just don't understand your obsession with trying to prove that children of God can lose their salvation. That seems to be an obsession with many folks who teach salvation by works.

i “contend earnestly for the faith” because that’s what Jude tells me to do. God says to “test” the spirits to see whether they are from God. Because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Titus says to REBUKE false teachers that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to the COMMANDMENTS OF MEN who turn away from the truth. This doctrine of “once saved, always saved, was the brain child of John Calvin in the 1500’s. Before that, no one taught such a doctrine. You are following the commandments of men. Open your mind to what the Bible says and study for yourself. Paul says in Eph. 5:11 we are to EXPOSE the “works of darkness.” False doctrine leads people astray and causes them to lose their souls. If I am obsessed, as you say, then this is why.

 

[mailmandan]

Does a plant produce fruit of itself? Indeed it does when the garden is kept free of weeds

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; Matthew 13:3

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 13:7-9

In regard to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching its desired goal. No loss of salvation here.

IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on GOOD SOIL, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) "Faith without works is dead" and only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away thereafter.

 

[mailmandan]

i “contend earnestly for the faith” because that’s what Jude tells me to do. God says to “test” the spirits to see whether they are from God. Because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Titus says to REBUKE false teachers that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to the COMMANDMENTS OF MEN who turn away from the truth. This doctrine of “once saved, always saved, was the brain child of John Calvin in the 1500’s. Before that, no one taught such a doctrine. You are following the commandments of men. Open your mind to what the Bible says and study for yourself. Paul says in Eph. 5:11 we are to EXPOSE the “works of darkness.” False doctrine leads people astray and causes them to lose their souls. If I am obsessed, as you say, then this is why.

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1) Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

I am more concerned with what scripture teaches than what John Calvin taught and scripture upholds the preservation of the saints. Your argument about John Calvin sounds similar to the same argument that Roman Catholics make in their efforts to reject OSAS. I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me. I follow scripture and not the commandments of men.

You are obsessed with this doctrine because you teach salvation by works at the back door which leaves you with no real sense of security. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I did not believe in OSAS, had so real sense of security and was miserable! After my conversion, I now have a real sense of security (1 John 5:11-13) and am no longer miserable but eternally grateful. Praise the Lord!

 

[Beckworth]

That sounds more like type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door.

There are 3 tenses to salvation.
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorfication)

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present, which is the mark of a genuine believer. This is not something that only elite saints do.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Judas Iscariot is a good example of one who did not abide and in John 13:10-11, we get to the heart of the matter of why he did not abide. He was unclean, unlike the 11 remaining disciples who were clean. Jesus also referred to Judas as a devil in John 6:70.

Believers are not passive in continuing in sound doctrine, but it's not merely in our own power that we continue. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through continuing in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out of the well, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope and allowing that person to pull you out of the well, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

Thank you for that excellent definition of “abide”. You “nailed it!” I agree. (I know you and I don’t agree much on anything else.)
Consider this: 2 John 9-“Whoever transgresses and does not ABIDE in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He is writing to the “elect lady and her children who walk in the truth. Some believe this “elect lady” is the church. Regardless, he is obviously writing to Christian’s. So he tells Christian’s that if they sin and don’t “remain” in the doctrine of Christ, if they “depart” from the doctrine of Christ and unless they “ continue to be present” in the doctrine of Christ then they DONT HAVE GOD. How is that even possible if osas is true? God is literally wasting His breath and time telling us this if it’s impossible to be lost. It makes no sense with that doctrine.

 

[vassal]

If a Christian can't be lost, why did Christ say he would tell many who professed him, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity". Or Paul say that if we deny him he will deny us. Denial goes beyond verbal disavowment into the works we do that reveal who we actually follow:

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:15-16

Depart from me, you workers of iniquity" this of for those who knew Jesus but decided to follow another doctrine or gospen different from what Christ was teaching, they rejected the truth. they believed Jesus bit did not do what ha asked us to do.

simply, If you love me keep my commandments Jesus said.

 

[mailmandan]

Thank you for that excellent definition of “abide”. You “nailed it!” I agree. (I know you and I don’t agree much on anything else.)
Consider this: 2 John 9-“Whoever transgresses and does not ABIDE in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He is writing to the “elect lady and her children who walk in the truth. Some believe this “elect lady” is the church. Regardless, he is obviously writing to Christian’s. So he tells Christian’s that if they sin and don’t “remain” in the doctrine of Christ, if they “depart” from the doctrine of Christ and unless they “continue to be present” in the doctrine of Christ then they DONT HAVE GOD. How is that even possible if osas is true? God is literally wasting His breath and time telling us this if it’s impossible to be lost. It makes no sense with that doctrine.

In regard to 2 John 9, all letters in the NT are addressed to Christians but that does not mean that EVERYONE mixed in with these groups of professing Christians are all genuine Christians. Hence, these kind of warnings. That is where you may get confused. If you visited a new church on Sunday (particularly a very large church) and the pastor of that church started out by greeting the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that EVERYONE attending church that morning truly was a brother or sister in Christ? So, it's not possible there may be "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in that church?

The words "stopped abiding" are nowhere found in 2 John 9 and instead, we see two camps:

1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ and do not have God" (never did) and
2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son."

OSAS is true and possible here when you don't confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and understand that not everyone mixed in with a group of professing Christians are all genuine Christians. It's the same with these letters in scripture as it is today in various churches and on various Christians forum sites. It's not hard to find genuine Christians mixed together with "nominal" Christians.

 

[Beckworth]

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1) Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

I am more concerned with what scripture teaches than what John Calvin taught and scripture upholds the preservation of the saints. Your argument about John Calvin sounds similar to the same argument that Roman Catholics make in their efforts to reject OSAS. I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me. I follow scripture and not the commandments of men.

You are obsessed with this doctrine because you teach salvation by works at the back door which leaves you with no real sense of security. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I did not believe in OSAS, had so real sense of security and was miserable! After my conversion, I now have a real sense of security (1 John 5:11-13) and am no longer miserable but eternally grateful. Praise the Lord!

The scripture assures us of salvation and all of those scriptures you quote that assure us of God’s salvation are only for those who “abide” in Him and his doctrine. You didn’t explain why God is telling Christian’s to abide in Him or they don’t have God in 2 John 9. Or why Paul says you can fall from Grace in Gal. 5:4. Why did Jesus tell the church (Christians) at Ephesus to “remember from where you have “FALLEN” and repent”? Tell us from WHERE did they fall? You won’t tell us but I will. They were Christian’s who “FELL” from their SAVED state or condition to an UNSAVED state or condition. This is true or why would Jesus tell them to repent? And why do Christian’s need to repent at all if they are going to be saved regardless of whether they repent or not? OSAs constantly contradicts God’s word, and is impossible in light of what God says. Instead of just quoting more scripture that tell us the believers in Christ who “abide” in him are secure—which we all believe—how about explaining Rev. 2:5, Gal.5;4, 1 Cor. 10:12, and 2 Peter 3:17. I’d like to know how you explain those—and at least about 20 more such scriptures that plainly teach a child of God CAN be lost if they leave Christ ( do not abide in Him). Jesus told parables that illustrate this plainly in the story of the lost sheep and the lost (prodigal) son. Deal with the real issue here and stop just telling how those who are in God’s fold are saved. We all know that.

 

[Beckworth]

In regard to 2 John 9, all letters in the NT are addressed to Christians but that does not mean that EVERYONE mixed in with these groups of professing Christians are all genuine Christians. Hence, these kind of warnings. That is where you may get confused. If you visited a new church on Sunday (particularly a very large church) and the pastor of that church started out by greeting the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that EVERYONE attending church that morning truly was a brother or sister in Christ? So, it's not possible there may be "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in that church?

The words "stopped abiding" are nowhere found in 2 John 9 and instead, we see two camps:

1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ and do not have God" (never did) and
2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son."

OSAS is true and possible here when you don't confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and understand that not everyone mixed in with a group of professing Christians are all genuine Christians. It's the same with these letters in scripture as it is today in various churches and on various Christians forum sites. It's not hard to find genuine Christians mixed together with "nominal" Christians.

Only God knows who among his followers are genuine or not. We are not to assume the worse of people (love thinks no evil -1Cor. 13:5) and I surely don’t believe God expects us to know that he is only talking about people who are not genuine Christian’s. How odd. There is no hint whatsoever in this chapter that he is addressing hypocrites! You are grabbing at straws and making up something that is not in the context. But then, this doctrine has no better explanation to offer.

 

[posthuman]

The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.

when a sheep wanders off, a good shepherd goes and finds it ((Luke 15:5))

an evil shepherd says oh well it's not good enough to be my sheep if it wanders.


He does not lose even one.
that doesn't mean He only loses the ones that wander off.
that means He doesn't lose any, at all.

 

[MeowFlower]

Amen! 2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Does it surprise you there are Christians who try to insist they're not truly secure in Christ?

 

[GWH]

Does it surprise you there are Christians who try to insist they're not truly secure in Christ?

It does not surprise me that some Christians insist the Scriptures I posted above do not teach the possibility of apostasy, because I was taught such and did not learn that truth until I read the Bible with an open mind in my late teens and early twenties.

 

[MeowFlower]

It does not surprise me that some Christians insist the Scriptures I posted above do not teach the possibility of apostasy, because I was taught such and did not learn that truth until I read the Bible with an open mind in my late teens and early twenties.

Apostasy.

A human fault.
God does not renounce his seal on those who's name he elected to his free irrevocable gift of grace before the foundation of this world.

Names written in the Lambs Book of Eternal Life before the foundation of the world does not bear the marks of White-Out.to imply God abandons his Elect is to stop believing God is Sovereign.

That, is Apostasy.

Please consider and read some more.
https://www.desiringgod.org/intervi...t=John does not say: If,of the book of life.”

 

[GWH]

Apostasy.

A human fault.
God does not renounce his seal on those who's name he elected to his free irrevocable gift of grace before the foundation of this world.

Names written in the Lambs Book of Eternal Life before the foundation of the world does not bear the marks of White-Out.to imply God abandons his Elect is to stop believing God is Sovereign.

That, is Apostasy.

Please consider and read some more.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/can-i-be-blotted-from-the-book-of-life#:~:text=John does not say: If,of the book of life.”

If you have more Scripture for me to read and consider, then please post it, but otherwise I guess that is about all I have say about this subject. Happy trails!

 

[SaysWhat]

The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.

Does that mean the good shepherd will not come to the rescue of the lost sheep until the lost sheep repents?

 

[MeowFlower]

Some believe they can lose Salvation. Walk away.

That's not Salvation. That's conditional reprieve. Man's doctrine. Not God's.

My trail is Happy. Lit by the light of God who keeps his word.

Good luck on your path.