All Of Israel, Or Just A Remnant?

[Inquisitor]

So far so good, as far as I can tell. This is the only issue I have yet to resolve.



Agreed. I would add that maybe 5% of Christians actually do. Chapter 7 is the biggest hickup for most.

Cheers!

Chapter seven is obviously a tough chapter to understand.

Chapter nine is even tougher to understand. I always struggled with chapter nine.

The letter to the Romans is the premier letter for Christian doctrine.

I agree, very few Church movements correctly understood the letter to the Romans.

I also know why they were incorrect.

 

[Inquisitor]

I agree with this.



This does not square with this:

”Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.”

He is no longer Jewish. He died in the flesh and arose with an incorruptible body, not of the earth but of the Spirit. He is no longer of the line of Eber but only of the direct line of God. This is what His resurrection proved on earth: that He was from above.

In short: we do not have a Jewish Savior. God, the Son, is our Savior.

You nailed that one.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes! There is only one Truth in scripture and how we find that is allowing God's Word to speak for itself. God's Word will interpret itself if we allow. Pro 3:5-6 Also there are no contradictions, especially with Paul's writings. He is hard to understand 2 Peter 3:16 but was a servant to Christ and never taught something different than what Jesus taught or lived .

Sin has been the biggest issue from the beginning and continues to this day. What is sad is most people won't allow the biblical definition of what sin is to guide their life, they depend on their own righteousness instead of God's Psa 119:172 and it is leading people down the wrong direction, same as in scripture. It's the same story that plays out over and over. God is longsuffering and in scripture it shows He will rise up a prophet to get people back to His Word that sadly most people scoffed. Nothing has changed.

2 Cor 36:15 The Lord, the God of their ancestors, sent word to them through his messengers again and again, because he had pity on his people and on his dwelling place. 16 But they mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the Lord was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

I disagree about Soloman, I believe he will be in God's Kingdom. Read the last chapter of Ecclesiastics- he repented. It goes to show how far away we can go away from Him, even like his father David did, but when one has a sincere heart and repents and changes their direction- Jesus is so just and faithful to forgive us. 1 Peter 1:9

This is one of Soloman's last words- words we should live by. Paul said something similar in 1 Cor 7:19

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear (revere) God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.

Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 most people teach we are saved in sin, but Jesus wants to change our hearts from the inside out and through Him we can keep His commandments and overcome sin. Sin is what separated us from God Isa 59:2 Jesus came to reconcile us. He not only took the penalty for our sins, He showed us the righteous way to live and is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 and the result is having the same faith of Jesus and keeping His commandments Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev 22:14.

I believe our time here is short- I can only imagine what it will be like in that Great Day!

Your problem from the very beginning is that Gentile nations were not given the law.

The ten words are in the law, God's legislation for the nation of Israel.

Your definition of sin is based on the law.

The definition of sin for the Gentiles is defined as the deeds of the flesh (Galatians 5).

Your interpretation is erroneous.

 

[p_rehbein]

Chapter 7 is only confusing when read as one statement I suppose. However, when people read Chapter 7 in context with, oh, say, Chapter 8, Isaiah's words, and the very statements that Jesus made throughout His ministry, Chapter 7 becomes clear to the sanctified believer.

Chapter 8:

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians, Chapter 3:

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John, Chapter 14:

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Isaiah, Chapter 10:

22For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness

Romans, Chapter 9:
22For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

These are just a few examples. There are many, many more, Cherry picking Scripture and then trying to understand it most often leads to misunderstanding instead,

There is only ONE WAY for ANYONE to receive eternal life and that is by believing IN Jesus and becoming a member of the "One Church."

I suppose sanctification is required to understand this truth. One MUST lean on the Holy Spirit to reveal to them the Truth of Scripture, and feast on the meat of Scripture,

God is NOT a liar. Jesus is NOT a liar. There will be no SECOND way for people to receive eternal life. ONE WAY.

ONE WAY!

As far as the "no difference verses speaking of Jews and Greeks, free and slaves, men or women.....the one part people seem to skip over is the part that says that "once saved." Once a person becomes a child of god through belief in Jesus and an heir to the promise; God does NOT see Jew or Greek, bond or free, or man or woman. He sees His children.

 

[Blade]

All Israel.. we know what Christ said to His own about He is the only way to the Father. Best said like this. Now Paul was not sayhing that all individuals will be saved, but was speaking of national denstiny. Putting it simply, Israel as a nation will be delivered form her enemies both spiritually and earthly adn be restored to her ancient privileges as Gods witness. Just before this we know Paul faced a heartbreaking situation. He has shown how ever that God turned Israel's failure into salvation for the gentiles.\

Again we cannot just ignore "I am the way the truth and the life no man come to the Father buy by me". So just being Jewish does not cannot save anyone. He told them His own first. Praise GOD I believe most of this world is blind and if blind have no sin some say they see their sin remains

 

[Takiyah]

Yes, but not always. The Body of Christ is built upon Spiritual Warriors who possess certain gifts and knowledge, so that when combined with the Body of Christ, a whole Body will be more complete. People will become what the Lord has created them to become.

That is true. Still, the Spirit will provide ALL that is missing…by any means. Judas is a great example. His absence from the group who were groomed to spread the good news of the coming, death, and resurrection of the Messiah was filled by those willing to spread the Word. Yah ALWAYS provides.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes! There is only one Truth in scripture and how we find that is allowing God's Word to speak for itself. God's Word will interpret itself if we allow. Pro 3:5-6 Also there are no contradictions, especially with Paul's writings. He is hard to understand 2 Peter 3:16 but was a servant to Christ and never taught something different than what Jesus taught or lived .

Sin has been the biggest issue from the beginning and continues to this day. What is sad is most people won't allow the biblical definition of what sin is to guide their life, they depend on their own righteousness instead of God's Psa 119:172 and it is leading people down the wrong direction, same as in scripture. It's the same story that plays out over and over. God is longsuffering and in scripture it shows He will rise up a prophet to get people back to His Word that sadly most people scoffed. Nothing has changed.

2 Cor 36:15 The Lord, the God of their ancestors, sent word to them through his messengers again and again, because he had pity on his people and on his dwelling place. 16 But they mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the Lord was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

I disagree about Soloman, I believe he will be in God's Kingdom. Read the last chapter of Ecclesiastics- he repented. It goes to show how far away we can go away from Him, even like his father David did, but when one has a sincere heart and repents and changes their direction- Jesus is so just and faithful to forgive us. 1 Peter 1:9

This is one of Soloman's last words- words we should live by. Paul said something similar in 1 Cor 7:19

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear (revere) God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.

Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 most people teach we are saved in sin, but Jesus wants to change our hearts from the inside out and through Him we can keep His commandments and overcome sin. Sin is what separated us from God Isa 59:2 Jesus came to reconcile us. He not only took the penalty for our sins, He showed us the righteous way to live and is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 and the result is having the same faith of Jesus and keeping His commandments Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev 22:14.

I believe our time here is short- I can only imagine what it will be like in that Great Day!

Love it!

Say, I read the last chapter of Ecclesiastes and I'm not seeing that a specific person changed their life. Can you show me those passages please?

Thank you so much, SB!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I agree, very few Church movements correctly understood the letter to the Romans.

I also know why they were incorrect.

Do share your thoughts!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree with this.



This does not square with this:

”Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.”

He is no longer Jewish. He died in the flesh and arose with an incorruptible body, not of the earth but of the Spirit. He is no longer of the line of Eber but only of the direct line of God. This is what His resurrection proved on earth: that He was from above.

In short: we do not have a Jewish Savior. God, the Son, is our Savior.

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus was actually born of a Jewish mother making him technically when he lived a descendant of Abraham , and David ( according to the flesh regarding his humanity )

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice Jesus the son of man’s geneology begins at Abraham

“Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren……and Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uriah”
‭‭
…..and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:2, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mary was a descendant of Abraham and David and Jesus was made of her flesh according to the flesh and his humanity I mean when he was born on earth in the flesh

“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭

The purpose was to deliver the gospel resulting in his spirit in believers calling us home to him our father in heaven.

He actually became one of the people he had chosen an Israelite of the tribe of Judah in order to redeem them that were condemned under the law by sin. And also to offer salvstion to all people of the earth

“For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭49:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus also is the suffering servant foretold to come , the true lawgiver God promised to send . he’s everything God promised in the Old Testament regarding the son who would be born in Israel to redeem them and to shine as the light of the world ( of the gentiles too ) and only salvation of God for all mankind

Some say “ Jesus is fully God and fully man “ it’s true and simplified way to say it it isn’t two people but one that fulfills both roles one on earth and one in heaven

 

[ewq1938]

Only a remnant being saved is physical Israel, those related to the 12 sons of Jacob. Only some of them are believers and will be saved.

"all Israel" being saved is best understood by the parable about some bad branches being removed, and some wild branches being grafted. Those removed were natural Israel such mentioned above but these do not accept Christ. They are removed and are no longer part of Israel. They are now Gentiles. All attached to the tree are true Israel also called spiritual Israel. All of them will be saved.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Only a remnant being saved is physical Israel, those related to the 12 sons of Jacob. Only some of them are believers and will be saved.

"all Israel" being saved is best understood by the parable about some bad branches being removed, and some wild branches being grafted. Those removed were natural Israel such mentioned above but these do not accept Christ. They are removed and are no longer part of Israel. They are now Gentiles. All attached to the tree are true Israel also called spiritual Israel. All of them will be saved.

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Aaron56]

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus was actually born of a Jewish mother making him technically when he lived a descendant of Abraham , and David ( according to the flesh regarding his humanity )

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice Jesus the son of man’s geneology begins at Abraham

“Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren……and Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uriah”
‭‭
…..and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:2, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mary was a descendant of Abraham and David and Jesus was made of her flesh according to the flesh and his humanity I mean when he was born on earth in the flesh

“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭

The purpose was to deliver the gospel resulting in his spirit in believers calling us home to him our father in heaven.

He actually became one of the people he had chosen an Israelite of the tribe of Judah in order to redeem them that were condemned under the law by sin. And also to offer salvstion to all people of the earth

“For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭49:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus also is the suffering servant foretold to come , the true lawgiver God promised to send . he’s everything God promised in the Old Testament regarding the son who would be born in Israel to redeem them and to shine as the light of the world ( of the gentiles too ) and only salvation of God for all mankind

Some say “ Jesus is fully God and fully man “ it’s true and simplified way to say it it isn’t two people but one that fulfills both roles one on earth and one in heaven

Abraham was a Chaldean.

Jesus was surely a Jew. Christ is not. There are no races in the eternal kingdom. On earth, there are only children of promise in Christ (Whose body is made up of all people who believe) and the condemned. This is why we are not to say our origin is any man on earth (“Call no man on earth your father”; father, here, means “generator”) Our origin is God in heaven. This would have been highly offensive to the Jews who extolled Abraham above all men.

When believers are called “sons of Abraham” it’s not a nod to his DNA. It’s inclusion in the promises that were given to him. These promises were secured by God and His Word. This is consistent with God being our origin, our father. He is the Father of our spirits which is the same spirit of Christ. By royal understanding, Christ is our primogenitor. Therefore we may properly call Him “Father”.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

They are removed and are no longer part of Israel. They are now Gentiles.

Ok. When I read this I said out loud, "What a trip."

That thought has never crossed my mind, which means that I've never heard it before. That's what I'm talking about!

But . . . will these Jews, now turned Israel, be grafted back in?

So, when Paul wrote the following, are you saying that the Jews in this passage are actually Gentiles?

Veddy, veddy interesting.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Jesus was surely a Jew. Christ is not.

Wow. This is another very interesting thought that I've never heard or considered before. Jesus is the human and Christ is the Messiah. Is that what you mean?

I love it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Do share your thoughts!

Thanks for the request.

Who is Paul addressing in chapter two of Romans, Jews or Gentiles?

Romans 2:24
For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Wow. This is another very interesting thought that I've never heard or considered before. Jesus is the human and Christ is the Messiah. Is that what you mean?

I love it.

Jesus was fully God and fully human. Philippians 2:6-8

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Love it!

Say, I read the last chapter of Ecclesiastes and I'm not seeing that a specific person changed their life. Can you show me those passages please?

Thank you so much, SB!

While it doesn't say he repented specifically his actions imply he repented.

In Romans 8- Paul describes what a lost man looks like

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

A lost man can't even subject themselves to God's law.

Ecclesiastics was written when Soloman was older

Soloman's last words in Ecclesiastics

Ecc 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

He talks about women being his snare

Ecc 7: 27And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her. "28Here is what I have found,” says the Preacher, “Adding one thing to the other to find out the reason,

I believe he repented and will be in heaven, hopefully we will find out soon enough.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Abraham was a Chaldean.

He may have lived in Mesopotamia but he was a descendant of Shem, Noah, and Eber. and is called an Hebrew.

 

[Nehemiah6]

"Abram the Hebrew"
And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. (Gen 14:13)

 

[Needevidence]

This concept has bothered me for quite some time. Does anyone have any ideas of how we justify the two below, and apparently opposing concepts?

Romans 9:27 NLT – “And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, "Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.”
Romans 11:25-26 NLT – “I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.”

I'm studying this as I write, so any ideas would be helpful. Thanks!

And those of you who want to fight and nit-pick . . . please don't participate. You suck the joy right out of what we're trying to accomplish, here.

This is a very interesting point which I have looked at before. Difficult to reconcile, but to add a bit more to it;

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there was the lamb, standing on Mount Zion! With him were 144,000 people who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

Rev 14:3 They were singing a new song in front of the throne, the four living creatures, and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.


Also Romans 11:26 is arguably a ref to Isaiah - which actual says that the redeemer will come to Zion & not come from Zion. It also mentions those that Repent.

Isaiah 59:20-21: “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD.

You also have;

Matt 21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So, I would argue that not all will be saved, only those that will repent and the kingdom of God has been given to another nation as they did not believe in Jesus as being the Messiah.