Abra Cadabra

[CharliRenee]

Why would Jesus WARN the elect to not be deceived IF THEY COULD NOT BE DECEIVED.....

COMMON SENSE and LOGICAL REASONING DICTATES what exactly.....

Why warn anyone of anything if it is impossible for what they are being warned about to happen....

Geesh....it is not that difficult

Fair enough DC, that is why I proposed the question from Matthew...

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:24 KJV

By the by, I have an annoying habit of overthinking or not thinking enough, lol.

Ok back to your point. I believe we are given the word and the HS to warn us and to keep us rooted. But i never really examined the "if it were possible" any other way than believing it clearly states it is possible.

Now, too agreeable I can be, but it isn't a matter of flip flopping or double mindedness, not even confusion, not even trying to please the masses, bro. That particular epiphany helped me to understand how this verse brings ppl to such opposite conclusions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My view boils down to a simple principle....WHY warn someone about something that is IMPOSSIBLE and can in NO WAY HAPPEN......?

The Greek does not say it is Impossible, difficult yes...BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE HENCE THE WARNING ahead of time!

and I never said otherwise.

 

[dcontroversal]

and I never said otherwise.

Oh I know bro.....for the masses...!

 

[CharliRenee]

Maybe look to Matthew 24 where Jesus talked about false Christs. They would perform signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect. But do not believe them, he said.

I can't recall the verse but it is in the Old Testament. A prophet of God intended to prove the pagan gods the people in this one city worshiped were dead idols with no power. While the king who defended these practices said that the gods must be real because they would eat the food offerings the people would leave them in the temple of these gods.
Again, I can't recall the prophet name but I recall all this happening so bear with me.
The prophet challenged the people and said he could prove their gods were fake. He then unebeknownst to the priests that served the temple sprinkled a very fine dusting of flour on the floor after the worshipers had left yet another serving of food for thee gods.

The next morning when the temple doors were unlocked the people and the prophet could see that sure enough the food was gone. But , there were human footprints left behind in the fine powder on the floor. They followed them to a secret passage that led to the priests who were the ones eating the donated foods.

I don't say Satan can't influence his chosen and give them the ideas so they can deceive people. I just don't think Satan can play God and accomplish for his motives the same miracles God can. Satan's authority as I remember the teaching is limited on earth but it is God who allows him that.

I think that is why Jesus warned against false prophets and those who would claim to be him after he went back to Heaven.

I'm editing to add this too. Abra-Kadabra is Hebrew isn't it?
Wasn't there something in the Bible related to king Solomon and that word and his magic?

I am fixing to look into that question, because clearly, I don't know. What clues do we have that I am ignorant with regards to my title choice. I didn't even spell it right, haha. Clearly, I need to do more research, lol. I welcome learning so thank you.

Now I'm going to go back and read your comment better.

 

[dcontroversal]

Fair enough DC, that is why I proposed the question from Matthew...

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:24 KJV

By the by, I have an annoying habit of overthinking or not thinking enough, lol.

Ok back to your point. I believe we are given the word and the HS to warn us and to keep us rooted. But i never really examined the "if it were possible" any other way than believing it clearly states it is possible.

Now, too agreeable I can be, but it isn't a matter of flip flopping or double mindedness, not even confusion, not even trying to please the masses, bro. That particular epiphany helped me to understand how this verse brings ppl to such opposite conclusions.

Not implying flip flopping.....and we should all have the same conclusion...there is but one after all....I will cite another biblical "proof in the pudding" if you will to hammer home my very valid point about warning and God does not issue warnings if WHAT he is warning about is IMPOSSIBLE....

Do not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden...why...because in the day you eat you will die.

The world and even the Lord's churches are filled with spiritually immature believers that are saved and easily swayed....Like EG pointed out with fire coming down from heaven....Not only ate they immature, but many have no clue about what the bible teaches beyond a few glasses of milk.....

Be not deceived is a warning because it is possible......

 

[CharliRenee]

Not implying flip flopping.....and we should all have the same conclusion...there is but one after all....I will cite another biblical "proof in the pudding" if you will to hammer home my very valid point about warning and God does not issue warnings if WHAT he is warning about is IMPOSSIBLE....

Do not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden...why...because in the day you eat you will die.

The world and even the Lord's churches are filled with spiritually immature believers that are saved and easily swayed....Like EG pointed out with fire coming down from heaven....Not only ate they immature, but many have no clue about what the bible teaches beyond a few glasses of milk.....

Be not deceived is a warning because it is possible......

This is way off topic, as I am somewhere between the milk and the meat. I love digging in on the carnivorous portions available. Have you ever thought about this? Before you do, I'm not bringing up an old Jewish law for the sake of arguement, Jesus paid for our freedom from such things. But isn't it interesting that Milk and meat combined were forbidden. I think that interesting because if we dig in to the meat of the matter, we should move beyond the milk. Ok, reaching, lol, I know, Brother, DC.

 

[preacher4truth]

I believe our LORD is heightening the level of the coming deception and is using the statement "if it were possible even the elect could be deceived" to do so.

He isn't saying it is possible, but in essence if it were possible. Matthew 24:24

"So that even the elect (if it were possible) will be led into error. This was added for the purpose of exciting alarm, that believers may be more careful to be on their guard;" - John Calvin

if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. By whom we are to understand, not the choicest believers, or the persevering Christians: not but that such who are truly converted, are choice believers in Christ, and persevering Christians are undoubtedly the elect of God; but then the reason why they are elect, and why they are so called, is not because they are converted, are choice believers, and persevering Christians; but, on the contrary, the reason why they are converted, become true believers, and persevere to the end, is, because they are elected; conversion, faith, and perseverance being not the causes or conditions, but the fruits and effects of election: besides to talk of the final seduction of a persevering Christian, is a contradiction in terms. Such an interpretation of the phrase must be absurd and impertinent; for who knows not that a persevering Christian cannot be finally and totally deceived? But by the elect are meant, a select number of particular persons of Adam's posterity, whom God, of his sovereign goodwill and pleasure, without respect to their faith, holiness, and good works, has chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, both to grace and glory: and to deceive these finally and totally, is impossible, as is here suggested; - John Gill

Notice that, though the elect may be powerfully tempted, they will repudiate and resist the attack and still remain loyal to their Lord. What a searching word is this!-“whom He did predestinate… them He also glorified,” Rom_8:30. They may be tempted, tried, almost deceived, but angels will bear them up in their hands and God will keep their feet. See Psa_91:12; 1Sa_2:9. - F. B. Meyer

If the elect were deceived it would contradict God's word.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is way off topic, as I am somewhere between the milk and the meat. I love digging in on the carnivorous portions available. Have you ever thought about this? Before you do, I'm not bringing up an old Jewish law for the sake of arguement, Jesus paid for our freedom from such things. But isn't it interesting that Milk and meat combined were forbidden. I think that interesting because if we dig in to the meat of the matter, we should move beyond the milk. Ok, reaching, lol, I know, Brother, DC.

We are supposed to move beyond the milk for sure....meat belongs to them of full age I.E. Mature......we do not feed a t-bone steak to a baby, nor would an adult survive off of milk without being malnourished....maybe you are on to something.....hahhaha and really...MILK DOES NOT DO WITH A GRILLED RIBEYE hahaha

 

[Locutus]

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Let put this in context, Christ was warning those in his day about the above.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

The above has nothing to do with some of the "elect" ever since being confused or wrong on doctrine.

 

[preacher4truth]

So how were the miracles performed by the magicians to match the miracles done while Moses was dealing with the hardened heart of Pharaoh? I reckon that they were rigged to look like miracles, or that satan Hisself had a hand in this.

I know that it isn't clear in Exodus but was wondering if you guys have any more to add.

Sorry for derailing and getting off topic a few posts back!

I was thinking, the magicians did what Moses and Aaron did concerning turning the water to blood, yet once Pharaoh saw this, he didn't take it to heart. "Pharaoh turned and went into his house, and he did not take even this to heart." Exodus 7:23

Whatever they did and however these did this, it cheapened the effect, since they too could "do" the same things. Since Scripture is silent, I won't attribute this to Satan. It appears when things are of Satan (and/or the demonic) it is stated specifically in Scripture, but not here. Maybe that's a hint?

It is my personal belief they were magicians, in the slight of hand fashion.

Bottom line is God knew all of this would take place, that the magicians too would do some of these signs and it would have no effect on Pharaoh but of hardening him against God.

 

[CharliRenee]

Sorry for derailing and getting off topic a few posts back!

I was thinking, the magicians did what Moses and Aaron did concerning turning the water to blood, yet once Pharaoh saw this, he didn't take it to heart. "Pharaoh turned and went into his house, and he did not take even this to heart." Exodus 7:23

Whatever they did and however these did this, it cheapened the effect, since they too could "do" the same things. Since Scripture is silent, I won't attribute this to Satan. It appears when things are of Satan (and/or the demonic) it is stated specifically in Scripture, but not here. Maybe that's a hint?

It is my personal belief they were magicians, in the slight of hand fashion.

Bottom line is God knew all of this would take place, that the magicians too would do some of these signs and it would have no effect on Pharaoh but of hardening him against God.

Your bottom line closing is soooo spot on!!

 

[CharliRenee]

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Let put this in context, Christ was warning those in his day about the above.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

The above has nothing to do with some of the "elect" ever since being confused or wrong on doctrine.

So in other words, that verse has nothing to do with end times or what's to come or what some say are happen now?

 

[Locutus]

So in other words, that verse has nothing to do with end times or what's to come or what some say are happen now?

This is what Adam Clarke had to say in his commentary:

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo here is Christ - Our Lord had cautioned his disciples against false Christs and prophets before, Matthew 24:11; but he seems here to intimate that there would be especial need to attend to this caution about the time of the siege. And in fact many such impostors did arise about that time, promising deliverance from God; and the lower the Jews were reduced, the more disposed they were to listen to such deceivers.

Like a man drowning, they were willing to catch even at a straw, while there was any prospect of being saved. But as it was to little purpose for a man to take upon him the character of the Christ, without miracles to avouch his Divine mission, so it was the common artifice of these impostors to show signs and wonders, σημεια και τερατα ; the very words used by Christ in this prophecy, and by Josephus in his history: Ant. b. xx. c. 7.

Among these Simon Magus, and Dositheus, mentioned before; and Barcocab, who, St. Jerome says, pretended to vomit flames. And it is certain these and some others were so dexterous in imitating miraculous works that they deceived many; and such were their works, that if the elect, the chosen persons, the Christians, had not had the fullest evidence of the truth of Christ's mission and miracles, they must have been deceived too: but, having had these proofs, they could not possibly be deceived by these impostors.

This is simply the meaning of this place; and it is truly astonishing that it should be brought as a proof for the doctrine (whether true or false is at present out of the question) of the necessary and eternal perseverance of the saints! How abundant the Jews were in magic, divination, sorcery, incantation, etc., see proved by Dr. Lightfoot on this place.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/matthew-24.html

 

[Hevosmies]

I believe our LORD is heightening the level of the coming deception and is using the statement "if it were possible even the elect could be deceived" to do so.

He isn't saying it is possible, but in essence if it were possible. Matthew 24:24

"So that even the elect (if it were possible) will be led into error. This was added for the purpose of exciting alarm, that believers may be more careful to be on their guard;" - John Calvin

if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. By whom we are to understand, not the choicest believers, or the persevering Christians: not but that such who are truly converted, are choice believers in Christ, and persevering Christians are undoubtedly the elect of God; but then the reason why they are elect, and why they are so called, is not because they are converted, are choice believers, and persevering Christians; but, on the contrary, the reason why they are converted, become true believers, and persevere to the end, is, because they are elected; conversion, faith, and perseverance being not the causes or conditions, but the fruits and effects of election: besides to talk of the final seduction of a persevering Christian, is a contradiction in terms. Such an interpretation of the phrase must be absurd and impertinent; for who knows not that a persevering Christian cannot be finally and totally deceived? But by the elect are meant, a select number of particular persons of Adam's posterity, whom God, of his sovereign goodwill and pleasure, without respect to their faith, holiness, and good works, has chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, both to grace and glory: and to deceive these finally and totally, is impossible, as is here suggested; - John Gill

Notice that, though the elect may be powerfully tempted, they will repudiate and resist the attack and still remain loyal to their Lord. What a searching word is this!-“whom He did predestinate… them He also glorified,” Rom_8:30. They may be tempted, tried, almost deceived, but angels will bear them up in their hands and God will keep their feet. See Psa_91:12; 1Sa_2:9. - F. B. Meyer

If the elect were deceived it would contradict God's word.

But if you believe anyone other than calvinists are saved which I believe you do: Arent they deceived into believing in free will?

 

[Hevosmies]

How come nobody is breathing fire anymore?
Why did the big miracles stop? God's people or devil's people neither are doing these kind of bible-level miracles of calling fire down from heaven etc.

 

[preacher4truth]

But if you believe anyone other than calvinists are saved which I believe you do: Arent they deceived into believing in free will?

Yes, I believe all are saved by the grace of Christ and yet some hold to false notions of salvation such as free will.

Really it is about choosing ones way into heaven more than "free will" if you get what I mean. This decisional regeneration heresy is a hand me down error coming from Charles Finney and Robert Sandeman.

Finney stated choosing ones way into heaven is the same as a career choice. Scripture flat out denies that we are saved via human choosing or human will.

So now people are preaching to others telling them all they need do is make a choice and they're in. Those preaching this same erroneous message via this hand me down "theology" are doing so in ignorance. But don't tell them because they'll get irate and say they found it in the bible. Revelation 3:20 for example. They have their free will idol to protect at all costs, it, to them get's "God off the hook" for his biblical Sovereign election.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

But if you believe anyone other than calvinists are saved which I believe you do: Arent they deceived into believing in free will?

My friend, he does not believe that.

 

[preacher4truth]

My friend, he does not believe that.

He said he believes that I believe it is not only calvinists who are saved. Of course that goes without saying.

 

[Hevosmies]

Yes, I believe all are saved by the grace of Christ and yet some hold to false notions of salvation such as free will.

Really it is about choosing ones way into heaven more than "free will" if you get what I mean. This decisional regeneration heresy is a hand me down error coming from Charles Finney and Robert Sandeman.

Finney stated choosing ones way into heaven is the same as a career choice. Scripture flat out denies that we are saved via human choosing or human will.

So now people are preaching to others telling them all they need do is make a choice and they're in. Those preaching this same erroneous message via this hand me down "theology" are doing so in ignorance. But don't tell them because they'll get irate and say they found it in the bible. Revelation 3:20 for example. They have their free will idol to protect at all costs, it, to them get's "God off the hook" for his biblical Sovereign election.

Thanks.

Do I understand correctly that you do believe in free will, but not free will unto salvation? Like you said "cant will your way to heaven".
But then in other areas we have free will to choose what groceries to buy and things like that?

 

[preacher4truth]

Thanks.

Do I understand correctly that you do believe in free will, but not free will unto salvation? Like you said "cant will your way to heaven".
But then in other areas we have free will to choose what groceries to buy and things like that?

It is simply apparent from Scripture that man does not decide his way into eternal life as so many on here teach. It is always brought up that we can choose other things "therefore..." which is begging the question and conflating the issue. It is declaring that we can also choose ourselves into the kingdom.

Jesus summed it up for us; "The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing" John 6:63 and this in regard to eternal life and salvation so it is not out of context in my usage.

One illustration the choosers use is "Faith is just like this: When you sit in a chair, you have faith it will hold you! Same thing about getting saved, it's like sitting in a chair!" Utter nonsense!

This does a disservice to the fact faith is a gift, is not innate within man, and comes from God, Romans 10:12, 12:3, Ephesians 1:19 &c.